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Old 01-19-2007, 01:52 PM   #19
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

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Originally Posted by phantasm777 View Post
only a minority of fans, the original metallica fans want them back to par, not the newer more improoved fans, so how can you sell out to a minority?

selling out is not about the fans before it is about adjusting your music to make more money and win fans that way. thats where the sell out is and has been for far too long.

and the original fans have not bailed, they're the most critical ones, but only cause they feel this new improoved metallica is too commercial and playing hard rock, after years of them bragging how they would never sell out.
This is the myth that a band should be happy playing to only the original 9 fans, imo. And the tr00 myth. And the 'Cliff-woulda-never-sold-out' myth.

All the proof I need that Metallica didn't sell out is when Hetfield said and says to this day that after AJFA it made no sense making an album in the same style again - they could not go 'any riffier' or any heavier than that album. That's why they changed on the black album and I sincerely believe that to be true. I'm so not buying into that whole tr00 myth.

And yeah - if you give the fans what they want it's selling out no matter if it's 9 fans or 9 million. Again, Metallica must play what Metallica feels like playing *insert any band into that formula* Anything else is selling out. Abandoning a desire to evolve to cater to 'proven' fans is just as much bs as the other way around.
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Old 01-19-2007, 06:04 PM   #20
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Well don't u think it's up to the band what they should do? Fans can whine all day but that wont help. I mean Metallica can't, and shouldn't please everybody.
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Old 01-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #21
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

to me and justice for all was the start of their downfall, so yes they couldn't and didnt get riffier. but when was that over 15 yrs ago and they couldn't come up with anything riffier at all? and saying the 9 original fans is very shortsighted.

ahh and you agree, cause current metallica fans are content with mediocrasy, and that's just what metallica is giving back, so by your own definition, that's selling out.

and of course it is up to the band but fans can have opinions, simple as that.
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Old 01-20-2007, 06:17 AM   #22
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

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Well don't u think it's up to the band what they should do? Fans can whine all day but that wont help. I mean Metallica can't, and shouldn't please everybody.
Exactly!

That's what I was trying to say and you nailed it in two lines
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Old 01-20-2007, 02:19 PM   #23
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

they already did, when they changed after and justice for all and they been pleasing the new fans ever since, and don'te really care aboiut the old fans who prooped them up when no one heard of them, but hey, that's life in the music business.
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Old 01-20-2007, 03:55 PM   #24
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Again, phantasm, I really think that's the big myth about Metallica maintained by the socalled tr00 fans. Consider for a second the tour they undertook following the Black Album which almost broke the band, was it 18 months? One of the most gruelling tours ever - if they hadn't all firmly believed in the material they were playing do you honestly think they wouldn't have just plain quit?!

Typically Metallica is 'divided' by tr00 fans between the softie idiots who can't play - ie Lars and Kirk - and the tr00 metal gods Hetfield and Newsted. Do you seriously think that

1) Hetfield the Tr00 Metal God would allow for Lars to water down the metal if he didn't believe in it himself? If so, just where would that leave the so far untarnished Tr00 halo he still has to this very day?

2) That at least Newsted wouldn't have just quit to be more tr00 somewhere else during that monster tour? And maybe bringing Hetfield with him (or the other way around) while both would claim that yeah, sure enough, Lars and Kirk wanted to sell out but they were too tr00 to plod along the commercial track laid out by, apparently, the massive mastermind that is Lars Ulrich......

It's ridiculous any which way you look at it - they recorded the Black Album because that's what the entire band felt like playing at the time - and when a band records and plays what they feel like... then it is not and cannot be deemed to be selling out.

And if you care to check out the videos from Live Shit:Binge and Purge you'd realize they look like they're enjoying themselves one and all.

I just so don't buy it and I never did - I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Yet again
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Old 01-20-2007, 09:21 PM   #25
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

not ridiculous, they even admitted way back, they wanted a bigger audience. so they wrote what could get them there, and of course they're gonna like it, or why do it?

its not about just what a band feels like playing, it is also what influences you to play, first they didnt care about money and you have the old metallica.

then they wanted to be bigger and wrote down from what they were doing, probably by listening to others that were doing well in such a style, in my opinion.

maybe they got tired of thrashing too, who knows. now, if you acknowledge you want to go for a big audience and your music changes a whole hell of a lot, i think some have a right to say sell out,

but i really don't care. if this is what metallica is, i simply don't have to like or buy it, simple as that. but i do believe they have to better live than any of their last several cds.
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Old 01-20-2007, 10:27 PM   #26
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Ah yes,the old sell-out thing.

If a band want's to exist they must make money.Or drop an app at Mc' D's. Reality is money.It is the same for all of us.

Personally I want any endeavor I indulge in to be successful.This is just common sense.I prefer to surf the web from the comfort of my home with a cold beer and an ashtray.Of course I could go to the library.....but no. I work to make money. Music IS a business people.

Therefore,the art of making money enters everyone's life.
Why are musicians any different? It is an art form for us the fans,but a band is a business,make no mistake.

Now,why would anyone think that Metallica could possibly know what it takes to write a hit song?

Hell,nobody really knows.There are many assumed formulas in the art of songwriting,but for every successful song, there are thousands that may follow the same basic pattern that languish in obscurity.

Add to that intangible mystery the whims of your audience.For a band to achieve what Metallica have is a fucking miracle when placed in context.

The quality of their product is purely subjective;there may be many fans who think St. Anger to be their best work.They would not be wrong.There thoughts and feelings are just as valid as anyone elses.

I have not heard that record yet but look forward to checking it out because I like the band.I hope it is different than the rest.The worst thing a band can do is NOT experiment and enter new territory,if you ask me.If their is a percieved drop in the quality according to the listener,at least they should admire the fact that the band is not repeating past triumph's....

OK I'm done now.....

Cheers,Geoff.
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:17 AM   #27
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

nothing wrong with experimenting trying new sounds, but for fans if it is lesser than par, i.e. old metallica, they simply do not have to support them. metallica has a choice and so do the fans.

all the best to ya metallica and current fans. there's nothing wrong with that nor the fact that i choose not to eb a current fan. no harm in expressing why, and i think it is very clear whether liked or agreed upon or not, but i know by some of what i read in other topics, i am not the oly one who feels similarly. to each their own!
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:29 AM   #28
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

My post was meant to touch on some of the bigger issues hinted at in this thread,meaning NOT my specific remarks regarding Metallica.

Like them or not is NOT my point.

The so called SELL OUT is what I tried to focus on.

Read my previous post and add your opinion if you have the inclination....
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:03 AM   #29
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

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Originally Posted by crackedactor View Post
Whatever people think a band cannot evolve if they play the same music over and over again.Metallica have moved on they try to produce new music or different music everytime.Sometimes it doesn't please people but not everyone thinks the Beatles White album is a classic do they ?

Very good point !
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Old 01-21-2007, 04:03 AM   #30
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

the new music is the same old thing you dont seem to understand, they need to evolve from that, and sure they dont have to go backwards in doing so. and i already made enough points about selling out.
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:11 AM   #31
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

I also think that the expectation of a new album is so hyped that lots want a "go back to the old sound" or whatever.....then when it comes out people say it doesn't sound fresh its the same as the old stuff...so either way they can't win.Another example if Black Sabbath did a new album with Ozzy it could never be as good as Sabotage,Master etc.... no matter how good it was....i like Metallica and i like St Anger so there..........
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:01 AM   #32
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

I have a 'feeling' that the very same fans who want their bands to stick with the old, trusted formula are also the very same fans who'll be very, very quick to let these bands know the very second the latest album isn't 'up to par' - just a hunch, is all! The overall notion of comparing new releases to previous albums is ridiculous. Be it Metallica, Stones or Ozzy - I prefer to deal with the new release and just that. I don't get into that whole comparison mode, what's the point? You either like the new stuff or you don't - what's been released before should not play into it at all. If it does... then it sure gets complicated for bands, don't it?! Aaaallways being measured against what they released in 71, 83 or 90? It's kinda sick - it's like 'normal people' always being told by parents or grandparents that 'what's gone into you George, since you turned 34 you're NOTHING like you were when you were 4?!'

I also like St. Anger - it was a bit long, that's all... I like the energy and I think there are some quality moments on there. Most seem to focus on the snare drum sound as very annoying but hey... doesn't really bug me at all, must admit.

Of the 90s stuff and beyond I like Black Album a lot - it come out when I was in high school and it was everywhere! And it's a really good album as soon as you get beyond the fact that it's 400% slower than Justice Load.... I think it's a great album to be honest. Again, maybe a couple of songs could've been dropped but hey... I for one was laughing hysterically at all those (including my friends) going nuts about the short hair, make-up and feather boas! The show I caught in Kiel in 96 was killer! The VHS/dvd from that tour is also great, imo.

Re-Load... this one should've probably been even shorter than Load but cudos to them for trying to put out two double lp's back to back.

S&M I never heard...

Garage days revisited I never bought but listened to a lot at a friend's place... it was ok but obviously not 'a real' album. On the tour they sucked hard.

St. Anger - I liked the two singles straight up and bought the cd+dvd as soon as it was released. Took me a bit to finally see the Monster dvd but I expected I'd disagree with those of my friends who'd seen it already - and sure enough, I did. I think it's a great documentation of what's been going on in the band over the past 10-15 years and not just the last couple of years. And a documentation of why St. Anger sounds like it does. Caught them on the tour in '03 and they were nothing short of blinding! Also on that tour they played Dyer's Eve live for the first time....

I think sometimes people forget that where you hear what a band's is about is - and/or should be - on stage, imo. And it seems to me that throughout most of the past 10-15 years they never stopped delivering live - except that one bum show that was just a bit too laid back. But if memory serves it got ok reviews so I guess that one time I was the one being too critical
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:25 PM   #33
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

one nof the points were, again, that theyre doing the same old not up to par stuff (opinion) that something like they were would be nice, but then, what's not said enough is, if they evovled and didn;t do this same new metallica stuff, and even not the old, maybe something different would saatisfy both groups of fans.

to me AGAIN, they don;t have to do like they did, though many miss that, just evolve from the crap they been doing for 15 yrs, in the beginning it was new for them, now it is not.

if they were to get stuck in a style, format, i'd have wished it was the old style.

but no one is against, evolving from the old metaliica, from the new metallica to an even newer metallica. so there! :P
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:32 PM   #34
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
Ah yes,the old sell-out thing.

If a band want's to exist they must make money.Or drop an app at Mc' D's. Reality is money.It is the same for all of us.

Personally I want any endeavor I indulge in to be successful.This is just common sense.I prefer to surf the web from the comfort of my home with a cold beer and an ashtray.Of course I could go to the library.....but no. I work to make money. Music IS a business people.

Therefore,the art of making money enters everyone's life.
Why are musicians any different? It is an art form for us the fans,but a band is a business,make no mistake.

Now,why would anyone think that Metallica could possibly know what it takes to write a hit song?

Hell,nobody really knows.There are many assumed formulas in the art of songwriting,but for every successful song, there are thousands that may follow the same basic pattern that languish in obscurity.

Add to that intangible mystery the whims of your audience.For a band to achieve what Metallica have is a fucking miracle when placed in context.

The quality of their product is purely subjective;there may be many fans who think St. Anger to be their best work.They would not be wrong.There thoughts and feelings are just as valid as anyone elses.

I have not heard that record yet but look forward to checking it out because I like the band.I hope it is different than the rest.The worst thing a band can do is NOT experiment and enter new territory,if you ask me.If their is a percieved drop in the quality according to the listener,at least they should admire the fact that the band is not repeating past triumph's....

OK I'm done now.....

Cheers,Geoff.
Nice post,Geoff.
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:04 PM   #35
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

It's all a matter of opinion basically. But comparing albums is mostly what these so called rock journalists do. I never understood how these guys think. For instance: Most said that Oasis third album Be here Now contained good songs but was crap because their were too much loud guitars on it. Then those same journalists often change their mind when a new album comes out and deceide the last album wasn't that bad like they used to say. Only most journalists demand that a band changes they're sound. They say something like 'Two cd's of this sound is ok but three is too much'. What does it matter? As long as the songs are good!

To me it's about songs and songs only. Sure a bit of experimentation isn't bad but I never complained about bands like AC/DC, Oasis, No fx or bad religion that sound the same for more then 10 years but continue to make good songs.
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:28 PM   #36
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Good point royal, was thinking about that earlier today as well. I love AC/DC and Status Quo, fx, as much as (or probably more than) the next guy so it's not a fixed thing at all to me. A band can change album by album or a band can stay the same 20-30-40 years - as long as the band plays what they wanna play the outcome should be great, imo.
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