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Old 01-22-2007, 12:21 AM   #37
phantasm777
 
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

"as long as the band plays what they wanna play the outcome should be great, imo."

not always and there's tons of examples of that, and ac/dc could use a new style. but its ok that they dont evolve yet it is if metallica does. something mixed up here.
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Old 01-22-2007, 03:20 AM   #38
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Initially I focused on the SELL OUT,but the second half of my previous post was on the songwriting.

I said how could Metallica deliberately write hit songs?

Nobody can,really. So why is the more recent Metallica stuff of less quality in the writing aspect ? I understand that if a person does not like the newer stuff that they may think that the skills they are a slippin,but that may not be the case.

Hit songs and changes in a band' s direction generally spell doom for that particular group,specially if they are a critics fave.

Why is that?

The Beatles had so much diversity in their music,why can't a band like Metallica? These guys just play and create songs, they have no clue how to write a hit.

If you were around when they first hit it big,you probably understand that the hype and word of mouth on this band was unstoppable,they could not avoid greatness if they wanted to,it was a given.

So as time went on they changed. Probably for no other reason than to grow musically,and then it becomes this current monster....too bad.
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:04 AM   #39
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

who said had to be hit songs? not like they'd make the top 40 or something.

all they had to do, from when they were old metallica, was tone down the complicated thrash-like riffs, do more hard rock riffs, tone down the speed. and they did and that was more mass accepted.

some of us just do not see it as growth, in a good way, and thats on us, i dont deny that.

and i dont put down the newer metallica fans. us old timers, so to speak, just miss those glory days. i think we have a right to point that out. and do wishful thinking,

after all, no matter what you, i, or anyone here says, they're gonna to what they wanna do, and that's fine.


and for the most part i agree with your (geoff) assessment.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #40
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantasm777 View Post
who said had to be hit songs? not like they'd make the top 40 or something.

all they had to do, from when they were old metallica, was tone down the complicated thrash-like riffs, do more hard rock riffs, tone down the speed. and they did and that was more mass accepted.

some of us just do not see it as growth, in a good way, and thats on us, i dont deny that.

and i dont put down the newer metallica fans. us old timers, so to speak, just miss those glory days. i think we have a right to point that out. and do wishful thinking,

after all, no matter what you, i, or anyone here says, they're gonna to what they wanna do, and that's fine.


and for the most part i agree with your (geoff) assessment.
I think we (almost) agree too, phantasm. The difference between us on Metallica is that I don't particularly yearn for them to play like they used to - they can do whatever as long as I find something on the records I like and that's about it. If they'd slowed down and at the same time written a crap album - I would probably have turned my back on them as well. But it just so happens that the Black Album is a pretty good album. With mass appeal, yeah, but as Geoff points out - you can't really program success. Maybe to some extent when it comes to marketing and all that but... it doesn't seem to me that's what they did. In fact around the time they recorded and toured the Black Album they were probably as ugly and dumb as ever

I remembered a Billy Joel quote - not verbatim but close enough. His most popular album is 77's The Stranger and he says everybody keeps asking him to 'do another one like that'. His reply is something like:

- Why would I wanna record something like The Stranger again? What would that be, The Stranger, pt. II?? I have no interest in that I've already made that album - what's the point in repeating it.

He said that - or close - in a tv-thing I taped once and probably in written interviews as well. Lots of artists say the same thing. Let's compare Iron Maiden and Helloween - Maiden did the hugely succesful Seventh Son album in '88. But chose to follow it with a huge change in direction to a simpler sound on No Prayer in '90. Helloween did the popular Keys album in 87-ish. And chose to follow it with Keys pt. II.... now I ask you, which band is the more interesting?

I know you probably don't like any of the two but still - I always think of those albums when thinking about this issue.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:32 PM   #41
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

If they wanted to score they wouldn't have re-recorded The Unforgiven. I mean u can't be as stupid as that
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:49 PM   #42
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

i like IM but i like helloween more, to me they have a more heavier edge, though i like helloween more with the original guitarist who is now in gamma ray which sounds more like helloween than the current helloween does. all respect and credit to IM but im a bigger (old) helloween fan (didnt think much of keys lps over all, i liked all the cds before that better, though i have both keys cds) i saw the original helloween with michael kiske in 90 and they were great.i believe it was the time of the first keys cd but it could have been for the cd before that.
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Old 01-22-2007, 06:26 PM   #43
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Wouldn't have thought you liked Helloween - good for you! I must admit I only have the two keys albums and if I were to get a couple more it would be the earlier ones. I've heard the Apefish or whatever and the Jericho? From about 1990 and late 90s respectively and they weren't very good at all, imo. Guitarist is Kai Hansen, isn't it? Yeah, good musicians and Kiske is a great singer - I somehow think that Helloween could've made more of themselves. Very good power metal type band, imo, but it seems they never managed to move beoynd that - which is why Kai left I guess?

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Old 01-23-2007, 09:14 AM   #44
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Those are later ones? When were they released?? Must say I'm sceptical of newer Helloween But most people are sceptical of newer Sepultura tho that's pretty happening as well so...
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:20 AM   #45
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

I had no idea they'd released this much lately - so Jericho was 94 or something? When did Kiske leave? :o I have some cathing up to do I guess, thanks
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:02 PM   #46
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

i bellieve you made a mistake saying kiske was the founder and original guitarist.

it was kai hansen who also sang and playted guitar, he did the first 3 cds, helloween, walls of jericho i think this was about 84 - 85 and i forget the other one, THEN kiske came in as singer and he sounded very much like hansen except a more professional sounding voice. it made hansen sing background for a great vocal combo.

hansen left sometime after the 2 keys cds. and formed gamma ray, and if you like helloween ... DEFINALTELY get some gamma ray,

to me after hansen and kiske left, helloween is not the same, but also to me, gamma ray picked up where what i liked about helloween left off.

again if you liked helloween first several cds, you should love gamma ray.
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:16 PM   #47
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

Aaah it's Chameleon I'm thinking about - I really didn't like that one when I checked it out some 5-10 years ago... The Ape one was tolerable if memory serves.

Gammaray, huh?! Never got around to checking them out - heard about them tho and mostly good things.

I'll have to check out some recent Helloween and compare it to Gammaray then - maybe I'll like both
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:24 PM   #48
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Re: Metallica 'sinking ship'? Rick Rubin to the rescue?

well il ike gamma ray cause they sound better than modern helloween, when the guy in helloween left helloween, hansen, to form gamma ray it was like he took the whole helloween with him, sound-wise. and to me helloween isnt near as good since he left, but it was made up for in gamma ray.

sort of like gamma ray = son of helloween. and gamma ray has made several cds, but go with the early onces forward, just as with helloween, go with the early ones forward.
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