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-   -   Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits! (https://www.crf2.com/showthread.php?t=69836)

Foxhound 04-27-2021 12:20 AM

Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Which of these great British Invasion bands do you prefer? Why?

Dave Clark Five












Herman's Hermits











:scratch:

Tkitna 04-27-2021 12:33 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
DC5 pretty handily for me

dwill123 04-27-2021 05:35 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Dave Clark Five


Black Night 05-03-2021 04:42 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups. Hardly in the same league as the great British bands that emerged during that era.

kw21925 05-03-2021 07:36 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
If I have to choose one, it's the DC5, but honestly, I haven't listened to either band in over 50 years.

Joey Self 05-03-2021 11:50 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I'll take the DC5; I have their double disc compilation and I think a single disc would have done it for my tastes. On the other hand, I don't have a comp of HH's, but I think I have an LP on the shelf. Couldn't tell you which one without looking at a discography, though.

[goes and looks at discography, since getting out of my chair to go look is too much trouble]

THE BOTH SIDES OF HERMAN'S HERMITS. I liked "My Reservation's Been Confirmed" but couldn't hum a note of a song I didn't know by another artist, like "Bus Stop."

JcS

Foxhound 05-03-2021 11:34 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups.

Whether you like it or not, it's still a fact that they were the two leading bands after the Beatles in the first eighteen months beginning January 1964 of the British Invasion of North America. Had you been in North America at the time or even taken the trouble to check the Billboard hit charts from 1964 to early 1965, you wouldn't find their exemplary status at all surprising.

In fact on the strength of five straight singles making the top five on the hit charts (at least in my handy CHUM Chart Book) between April and August 1964, the Dave Clark Five even rivaled the Beatles in popularity in North America until about the spring of 1965:











I still remember a phone-in poll conducted by my local Top Forty station CHLO in 1964 matching the two bands against each other which the Beatles won by a margin of only about 65% to 35%.

Meanwhile Herman's Hermits had two #2 hits followed by two #1 hits between November 1964 and May 1965.

Any later accounts that you might have read that jump immediately from the Beatles to the Rolling Stones as leaders of the first wave of the British Invasion are naught but historical revisionism. While the Stones were already the second most popular band after the Beatles in the U.K. in 1964, they didn't stake that claim in North America until (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction was released in June 1965. Time Is on My Side was the Stones only top ten single (actually #6) in the United States in 1964. (Although Time Is on My Side didn't manage to make CHUM's chart at all, Heart of Stone made it to #1 on the CHUM chart in March 1965.) Quite simply the Stones weren't even among the top five British Invasion bands in North America (behind Gerry & the Pacemakers, the Animals, the Kinks and perhaps even the Searchers as well) until the spring of 1965 when they really got rolling.

:drummer:

Foxhound 05-04-2021 04:21 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I rank my favourite songs by these two bands as follows:

1. Over and Over - Dave Clark Five (tie)
1. No Milk Today - Herman's Hermits (tie)
3. There's a Kind of Hush (All Over the World) - Herman's Hermits
4. Everybody Knows (You Said Goodbye) - Dave Clark Five
5. Dandy - Herman's Hermits
6. Silhouettes - Herman's Hermits
7. This Door Swings Both Ways - Herman's Hermits
8. I'm Henry VIII, I Am - Herman's Hermits
9. Catch Us if You Can - Dave Clark Five
10. Because - Dave Clark Five

Herman's Hermits gets the decision and therefore my vote.

:smile:

dwill123 05-04-2021 07:41 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Just a side note. One of my favorite British comedies was 'The Vicar of Dibley' (it ran on and off from November, 1994 to January 1, 2007). One of the funniest characters on the show was actor Trevor Peacock. If you know the show he played Jim Trott (the guy who always answered a question with, "No, No, No, No, YES". Sadly he recently passed away on March 8, 2021. To my surprise while reading his history I discovered that he wrote the song "Mrs. Brown, You've Got a Lovely Daughter". This song went to #1 in the United States in May 1965. R.I.P.


Black Night 05-06-2021 08:22 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound (Post 1299773)
Whether you like it or not, it's still a fact that they were the two leading bands after the Beatles in the first eighteen months beginning January 1964 of the British Invasion of North America. Had you been in North America at the time or even taken the trouble to check the Billboard hit charts from 1964 to early 1965, you wouldn't find their exemplary status at all surprising:

In fact on the strength of five straight singles making the top five on the hit charts (at least in my handy CHUM Chart Book) between April and August 1964, the Dave Clark Five even rivaled the Beatles' in popularity in North America until about the spring of 1965:











I still remember a phone-in poll conducted by my local Top Forty station CHLO in 1964 matching the two bands against each other which the Beatles won by a margin of only about 65% to 35%.

Meanwhile Herman's Hermits had two #2 hits followed by two #1 hits between November 1964 and May 1965.

Any later accounts that you might have read that jump immediately from the Beatles to the Rolling Stones as leaders of the first wave of the British Invasion are naught but historical revisionism. While the Stones were already the second most popular band after the Beatles in the U.K. in 1964, they didn't stake that claim in North America until (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction was released in June 1965. Time Is on My Side was the Stones only top ten single (actually #6) in the United States in 1964. (Although Time Is on My Side didn't manage to make CHUM's chart at all, Heart of Stone made it to #1 on the CHUM chart in March 1965.) Quite simply the Stones weren't even among the top five British Invasion bands in North America (behind Gerry & the Pacemakers, the Animals, the Kinks and perhaps even the Searchers as well) until the spring of 1965 when they really got rolling.

:drummer:


I know they had huge success, but I still dont understand why, because they were not very good. The timing was right for them, because whenever some giants of rock/pop appear, a bandwagon follows where very ordinary groups get success on the coat tails of the genuinely good. It happens with every phenomenon.


Over here in the UK, anyone formed in Liverpool was suddenly in the spotlight after The Beatles, and most sunk without trace in a couple of years.


When punk emerged, every new group tried their hand at it, had short term success, and disappeared.


No British acts had ever had success in the US before The Beatles, and based on them, there was a clamour for more.


The great bands of that era are still held in esteem, but who knows more than a handful of songs from this pair who timed it right?


It was very bizarre, even to the extent that The Who toured with Hermans Hermits, and opened for them. I dont think anyone who likes their rock music would ever consider the pair to be in the same league.

Foxhound 05-07-2021 11:06 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299790)
It was very bizarre, even to the extent that The Who toured with Hermans Hermits, and opened for them. I dont think anyone who likes their rock music would ever consider the pair to be in the same league.

That is absolutely understandable because the Who were relative latecomers. They didn't arrive on the scene until the other bands mentioned in this thread were already well established hit makers on the charts. The Who's first album, My Generation, didn't hit stores until December 1965 in the U.K. and April 1966 in North America. Their second album, Happy Jack, wasn't released until April 1967 in North America. The Happy Jack single from late in 1966 was their first hit in North America and even that only got to #24 on the Billboard chart (though it reached #1 in May 1967 on Toronto's CHUM radio chart).

So it was during the Who's very first tour of North America in the summer of 1967 that they opened for Herman's Hermits who were then touring North America for the seventh time. Of course Herman's Hermits were going to be the feature act. With a whopping sixteen Top 35 hits in the States including eight Top 5 hits with two of those having reached #1, Herman's Hermits were the established hit-makers and it was their name on the bill that sold the tickets.

This was also when the Who were still engaging in the gimmick of destroying their instruments after every performance, something which was not exactly going to gain them credibility with serious music fans.

:smile:

Foxhound 05-08-2021 11:41 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Interesting that the Dave Clark Five played two shows at Treasure Island Gardens in my home town of London, Ontario on 3 November 1964. The capacity of Treasure Island Gardens was 4500-5000 for hockey games but I'm not sure what a concert configuration would have enabled. Although at the age of twelve I simply had no interest in attending the shows myself, by all accounts they were well received by London's young music fans and went off without a hitch.



Meanwhile the Rolling Stones had released The Last Time and Play With Fire as a double-sided single in February 1965 and by the spring of 1965 their popularity was really starting to burgeon in North America. The Rolling Stones then played Treasure Island Gardens on 26 April 1965 before about 3000 fans although once again I had no interest in attending. Just as well since their show turned into such a wild mob scene that the police cut the power about fifteen minutes into their set while the Stones were playing It's Off the Hook. The fans then rioted and did some damage to Treasure Island Gardens. Accounts of this show are mentioned in many Stones' biographies/histories.

While the Stones promised to make it up to their London and area fans by returning for another engagement, they've still not fulfilled their promise.

:frown:

Foxhound 05-17-2021 10:04 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
The popularity of the Stones in North America was already surging in early 1965. The aforementioned single Time Is on My Side was instrumental in gaining them an appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show on October 25th:



Following the show Ed Sullivan reputedly said “I promise you they’ll never be back on our show. It took me seventeen years to build this show and I’m not going to have it destroyed in a matter of weeks.” But after having a chance to look at the ratings he sent the Stones this message "Received hundreds of letters from parents complaining about you, but thousands from teenagers saying how much they enjoyed your performance."

The Stones then appeared on the T.A.M.I. Show which was being made into a concert film on October 29th:



When the T.A.M.I. Show was released to theatres on December 31st, their popularity got another huge push in North America. I saw the T.A.M.I. Show at a theater in downtown Detroit in the company of my older sister in early January 1965.

:smile:

Foxhound 09-14-2021 10:34 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups.

Because the first wave of the British Invasion until late in 1964 was all about cheesy pop groups. What do you think the Beatles were in 1963-64? But there was nothing wrong with those cheesy pop groups, especially not in the context of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
Hardly in the same league as the great British bands that emerged during that era.

Your definition of era must encompass years and not just months but given the pace of change in pop music in the 1963-1968 period, it should only be months. It's All Over Now by the Rolling Stones wasn't released until June 1964. House of the Rising Sun by the Animals wasn't released in the States until August 1964.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299790)
I know they had huge success, but I still dont understand why.... The timing was right for them, because whenever some giants of rock/pop appear, a bandwagon follows where very ordinary groups get success on the coat tails of the genuinely good. It happens with every phenomenon.

You say you don't understand why, but then you go on to explain it very clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299790)
I know they had huge success, but I still dont understand why, because they were not very good.

How can you say they weren't very good though? That's where we actually disagree.

They were very good indeed in the context of the time. You're a bit young to have been a record buying music fan in 1963-64 so you're just looking back and critiquing in retrospect now.

Interesting that I didn't start buying records myself until the summer of 1967 and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was my first record purchase. As a studious young fellow at the time, I would only buy LPs by those I regarded as serious musicians. I therefore sneered at the cheesy pop artists such as the Monkees, Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Paul Revere & the Raiders, the Motown artists and soul in general. But within ten years or so I was looking back at the music snob I'd been in high school and laughing at my younger self. Music didn't need to be by "serious" musicians to be good. If a piece made me want to turn up the volume in my 1973 Dodge Charger with the Pioneer 6x9 speakers, it was good! And a number of the tracks by the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits passed that standard. Case closed.

:smile:

Foxhound 09-15-2021 11:51 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299790)
It was very bizarre, even to the extent that The Who toured with Hermans Hermits, and opened for them.


Speaking of opening acts, my books on the history of the Rolling Stones have pictures of all kinds of concert bills/posters from 1963-64 showing the Stones as opening acts for better known performers at the time. Here are a few I lifted from the net:







:faint:

Foxhound 09-18-2021 11:33 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kw21925 (Post 1299762)
If I have to choose one, it's the DC5, but honestly, I haven't listened to either band in over 50 years.


While I very rarely listen to either band although I have a few of their LPs in my record cabinet, I would much rather listen to either band than to many of the big name bands from the mid-1970's onward. I hardly like anything by many of the heavy metal, prog, arena rock, punk, hair metal and grunge bands that cropped up in the last 25 years of the twentieth century.


:dunno:

Black Night 09-18-2021 12:40 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound (Post 1301722)
Because the first wave of the British Invasion until late in 1964 was all about cheesy pop groups. What do you think the Beatles were in 1963-64? But there was nothing wrong with those cheesy pop groups, especially not in the context of the time.



Your definition of era must encompass years and not just months but given the pace of change in pop music in the 1963-1968 period, it should only be months. It's All Over Now by the Rolling Stones wasn't released until June 1964. House of the Rising Sun by the Animals wasn't released in the States until August 1964.



You say you don't understand why, but then you go on to explain it very clearly.



How can you say they weren't very good though? That's where we actually disagree.

They were very good indeed in the context of the time. You're a bit young to have been a record buying music fan in 1963-64 so you're just looking back and critiquing in retrospect now.

Interesting that I didn't start buying records myself until the summer of 1967 and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was my first record purchase. As a studious young fellow at the time, I would only buy LPs by those I regarded as serious musicians. I therefore sneered at the cheesy pop artists such as the Monkees, Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Paul Revere & the Raiders, the Motown artists and soul in general. But within ten years or so I was looking back at the music snob I'd been in high school and laughing at my younger self. Music didn't need to be by "serious" musicians to be good. If a piece made me want to turn up the volume in my 1973 Dodge Charger with the Pioneer 6x9 speakers, it was good! And a number of the tracks by the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits passed that standard. Case closed.

:smile:


You prove my point that they weren't very good when you list Henry the 8th in the top ten songs between them. It was drivel. They did a few decent pop songs, but they were nowhere near the Beatles, The Stones, The Animals, The kinks, or others that never made it over there during that era, such as The Hollies.


I do remember that time, although i was quite young, and I could recognise the difference in quality between those two, and the others I mention.


Being popular, on the back of demand for more Beatles like groups doesn't make them good, but they were great teenybop fodder, as many since have been, who have also disappeared, with no real legacy. I would struggle to name 10 songs from either group, let alone good ones, and ther inclusion of Henry the 8th is confirmation of what they were about.


If you like them, fair enough, but lets not pretend they were special in any way. They were lucky.

kw21925 09-19-2021 09:01 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I had to laugh at the cover of "The Dave Clark Five vs. The Beatles" posted above, where Dave Says "I'll duel with Ringo". Dave Clark didn't even play on most of the DC Five hits; they used a session drummer. He couldn't carry Ringo's tea towel.

Black Night 09-19-2021 01:29 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kw21925 (Post 1301810)
I had to laugh at the cover of "The Dave Clark Five vs. The Beatles" posted above, where Dave Says "I'll duel with Ringo". Dave Clark didn't even play on most of the DC Five hits; they used a session drummer. He couldn't carry Ringo's tea towel.


Agreed. The press in the UK tried to build it up as a rivalry, because DC5 came from London I think, but they were light years off The Beatles, and most of the other bands that took their music more seriously back them. They were leagues apart, and the DC5 should have been embarrassed by attempted comparisons with The Beatles. Hermans Hermits were their level. Henry the 8th indeed!!

Foxhound 09-20-2021 12:12 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1301814)
The press in the UK tried to build it up as a rivalry, because DC5 came from London I think, but they were light years off The Beatles, and most of the other bands that took their music more seriously back them. They were leagues apart....

Once again you're completely failing to put things into the perspective of the time or else you're conflating the 1964-65 period with later years. What was demanded in 1964 and through most of 1965 from a band was a steady stream of Top Forty hits. And the Dave Clark Five delivered.

And just how many bands were there that "took their music more seriously" up to the early months of 1965? The Beatles? The Kinks? The Zombies? Actually no. None of these bands were anything more than good honest rock bands at the time. They wouldn't have been as successful as they were had they been anything but. Yes, the Animals and the Rolling Stones had scored a degree of chart success with edgier rhythm 'n blues tunes, but that's about it until mid-1965. The Yardbirds and all the rest were still trying to take flight in early 1965.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1301786)
They did a few decent pop songs, but they were nowhere near the Beatles, The Stones, The Animals, The kinks, or others that never made it over there during that era, such as The Hollies.

Quite simply I can only name a very few bands that had emerged by the spring of 1965 who were better than the two bands that are the subject of this poll - the Beatles, Animals, Kinks, Zombies and Rolling Stones. That's pretty good company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1301814)
...the DC5 should have been embarrassed by attempted comparisons with The Beatles.

Embarrassed? Why? That would have been a completely brainless reaction on the part of the Dave Clark Five. I rather think they were glad of the publicity and happily cashing whatever royalty cheques the publicity helped them garner.

The Beatles were certainly put off by those comparisons, but that's because in 1964-65 they didn't feel at all secure in their positions at the top of the rock pantheon. After all history clearly showed that when it came to pop music success, it was here today gone tomorrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1301786)
You prove my point that they weren't very good when you list Henry the 8th in the top ten songs between them. It was drivel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1301814)
Hermans Hermits were their level. Henry the 8th indeed!!

Your sneers notwithstanding, I'm Henry VIII, I Am brilliantly did the job for which it was intended. It was a smash hit on the airwaves and was the single fastest-selling song in history to that point.

Was it simplistic? Absolutely! But complexity isn't necessary in good music, especially not pop music. A strong argument can be made that increased complexity is more often than not a negative.

Was it anything but a British dance hall sendoff? No. But that was fine in early 1965! And hopefully here you're not a fan of the Beatles' White Album because that's full of British dance hall sendoffs and other maudlin tracks which was decidedly not fine by late 1968.

Finally, I'm Henry VIII, I Am splendidly passed the test of time. It was a tremendous influence on no less a band of luminaries than the Ramones and was thus instrumental in inspiring the punk rock movement ten years later:

Did punk begin with I'm Henry VIII? - Althouse

The bottom line with respect to these two bands is that I still enjoy a handful of tracks by each band. But I can name well over a dozen big name bands from the 1970's to the 1990's from whose entire catalogues I can name no more than one track I really like - e.g. Black Sabbath, Kiss, Queen, AC/DC, Electric Light Orchestra, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Rush, Guns 'n' Roses, Bon Jovi, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc.

:drummer:

kw21925 09-21-2021 07:06 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound (Post 1301825)

Finally, I'm Henry VIII, I Am splendidly passed the test of time. It was a tremendous influence on no less a band of luminaries than the Ramones and was thus instrumental in inspiring the punk rock movement ten years later:

Did punk begin with I'm Henry VIII? - Althouse

I think "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks and "My Generation" by The Who were more of a precursor to punk than "Henry The Eighth".

Foxhound 09-21-2021 09:37 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kw21925 (Post 1301835)
I think "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks and "My Genreation" by The Who were more of a precursor to punk than "Henry The Eighth".

I agree. I'd also add 96 Tears by ? & the Mysterians and Wild Thing, With a Girl Like You and I Can't Control Myself by the Troggs to the list of 1960's songs that most inspired punk. Incidentally I saw the Dead Boys perform With a Girl Like You onstage at the New Yorker Cinema on Yonge Street in Toronto in the fall of 1977. Twas very impressive to be sure!

Admittedly I was surprised to learn that I'm Henry VIII, I Am was such an important creative influence on the Ramones. But then again as a reaction to the excesses that had crept into mainstream rock by the mid-1970's, punk was initially all about returning rock to its two minute single roots.

:dunno:

Foxhound 09-21-2021 12:14 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kw21925 (Post 1301810)
Dave Clark didn't even play on most of the DC Five hits; they used a session drummer.


But the reason Dave Clark often used session drummer Bobby Graham in the studio is the same reason that a lawyer doesn't type his own briefs even if he's the best typist in town. His time is better spent doing more valuable work.

Dave Clark was the founder and manager of the Dave Clark Five. He was also not only the writer or co-writer with other band members of nearly all their hits, he arranged as well as produced their recordings. With Bobby Graham very capably duplicating Dave Clark's signature builds and rolls, Clark's time was therefore better spent behind the dials and switches of the sound board in the studio's control room.

Before becoming recording stars, the Dave Clark Five had served a long internship playing clubs and theatres in the United Kingdom. By 1962 they were a regular feature attraction in England's extensive Mecca ballroom chain. In fact now that I've delved deeper into the Dave Clark Five because of the questions/issues raised in this thread, I've actually acquired a greater appreciation for the band:

Dave Clark Five - Encyclopedia.com

Dave Clark - Sound&Vision

For one thing right from the outset Dave Clark cleverly kept the rights to all the Dave Clark Five music masters thus differentiating himself from almost all his less prescient contemporaries who all too often found themselves left with very little but the fame from their music success.

:thumbsup:

Black Night 09-24-2021 01:12 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Henry the 8th may have been a smash hit, so have many other awful records been over the years.

Foxhound 09-24-2021 04:27 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I'm Henry VIII, I Am is a harmless ditty that wasn't intended to be anything but a jaunty radio single. It doesn't merit aggravation.

I've actually seen Herman's Hermits twice including at the Canadian National Exposition in Toronto in 2012 where they were part of a double bill with Paul Revere & the Raiders. Though Peter Noone and Paul Revere were the only original members from either band on stage that day, both bands nailed all their biggest hits and the crowd lapped it up. Quite simply it was a great fun concert, everybody got their money's worth and left well pleased with the show.

Peter Noone in particular was still a consummate entertainer and put on a good energetic show. At one point at the Ex he did a parody of Mick Jagger's stage act and nailed it. So funny!

Here's a review of a Herman's Hermits show from a few years ago:

Herman's Hermits - New York State Fair

I could/would have written a very similar review at the time.

In any event, here are five more of my favourite tunes by Herman's Hermits:











:cool:

Foxhound 09-27-2021 10:49 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound (Post 1299809)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299790)
It was very bizarre, even to the extent that The Who toured with Hermans Hermits, and opened for them.

That is absolutely understandable because the Who were relative latecomers. They didn't arrive on the scene until the other bands mentioned in this thread were already well established hit makers on the charts. The Who's first album, My Generation, didn't hit stores until December 1965 in the U.K. and April 1966 in North America. Their second album, Happy Jack, wasn't released until April 1967 in North America. The Happy Jack single from late in 1966 was their first hit in North America and even that only got to #24 on the Billboard chart (though it reached #1 in May 1967 on Toronto's CHUM radio chart).

So it was during the Who's very first tour of North America in the summer of 1967 that they opened for Herman's Hermits who were then touring North America for the seventh time. Of course Herman's Hermits were going to be the feature act. With a whopping sixteen Top 35 hits in the States including eight Top 5 hits with two of those having reached #1, Herman's Hermits were the established hit-makers and it was their name on the bill that sold the tickets.

Herman's Hermits were such big stars at the time that they reduced almost all other bands to second billing. Here's a concert poster for a show in Dallas on 16 July 1966 that I dredged up from the web:



And here's a concert poster from that summer of 1967 tour with the Who:



Incidentally here is the appearance that the Who made on the Smothers Brothers TV show around the time of that 1967 tour:



Hmmmmm. I love the way John Entwistle stayed cool and disengaged from the surrounding mayhem.

Good thing that I never saw their appearance on the Smothers Brothers at the time. I might perhaps have been less inclined to go out and buy the Tommy LP after I read about it in Time magazine in the late spring of 1969. That would have been a pity because I found it to be fabulous! Tommy together with some of their previously released singles including Happy Jack and Magic Bus turned me into a big fan of the Who.

But then again who knows? I might have interpreted their shenanigans on the Smothers Brothers as evidence of their dedication to their craft la Jimi Hendrix pouring lighter fluid on his guitar, setting it ablaze and then playing it with his teeth behind his neck. I don't know whether it's the times that have changed or I have....

:dunno:

Foxhound 09-30-2021 10:30 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I can't find any posters with both the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits on the same bill. But here are a couple posters from 1965 with the two bands featured on different nights:





Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Gerry and the Pacemakers, the Kinks plus the Moody Blues or the Rolling Stones, all at the same price at the Arie Crown Theater in Chicago! Take your pick.

:cool:

Black Night 10-10-2021 04:16 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxhound (Post 1301965)
I can't find any posters with both the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits on the same bill. But here are a couple posters from 1965 with the two bands featured on different nights:





Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Gerry and the Pacemakers, the Kinks plus the Moody Blues or the Rolling Stones, all at the same price at the Arie Crown Theater in Chicago! Take your pick.

:cool:


I'd pick the Stones, The Kinks, and the Moodies. I would stay in and wash my hair rather than bother with the others, who became stars on the coat tails of the class acts around them. It happens in every era. The class acts progress, and develop, and those on the coat tails carry on doing the same thing, and become cabaret acts., if they bother at all.

JohnDMcClane 10-12-2021 01:55 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
To be honest I went for Dave Clark Five just for their B-side "Concentration Baby", which is just...ah, SO GOOD!

Foxhound 10-14-2021 10:08 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302100)
I'd pick the Stones, The Kinks, and the Moodies. I would stay in and wash my hair rather than bother with the others....

Looking back as a rock music fan cum historian, I wish I'd seen all those shows. As windows in time, they'd have left me with an invaluable historical perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302100)
...the others, who became stars on the coat tails of the class acts around them.

Nonetheless, during the early eighteen months or so of the British Invasion the Beatles monitored the success of the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits with some degree of concern. Said Andrew Loog Oldham "In 1964 when the Beatles looked in their rear-view mirror, it wasn't the Rolling Stones they saw, it was the Dave Clark 5 and Herman's Hermits".

Interesting as well that riding on the coat tails of the success of the Beatles' Hard Day's Night movie, the Catch Us if You Can movie featuring the Dave Clark Five was released in the U.K. in April 1965 and on 18 August 1965 in the States retitled as Having a Wild Weekend:



A Herman's Hermits movie entitled Hold On followed suit in April 1966:



But the efforts to release a movie featuring the Rolling Stones were stillborn. While a rockumentary entitled Charlie Is My Darling chronicling the Stones' September 3-4th 1965 concert tour of Ireland was finished in the spring of 1966, it was never released due to legal wrangling between the Stones and their U.S. business manager Allen Klein and the fact that all the known finished prints disappeared after a burglary of Andrew Loog Oldham's office.



The two other Stones' films that were in the planning stages in late 1965 and 1966, Back, Behind and in Front and Only Lovers Left Behind, didn't get off the ground.

:frown:

Black Night 10-14-2021 11:08 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I have never seen anything from The Beatles where they considered those two groups as a threat to them, because they weren't. Those two had their act, and stuck with it until they got fed up with it, and disappeared. The Beatles, The Stones, and the other quality bands progressed year upon year. Please Please Me to Abbey Road in leass than 7 years. Old Herman cant match that.

If you like them, that's okay, but lets not pretend they were anywhere near the level of The Beatles, The Stones etc. In the UK they were part of the mainstream pop scene, and were not as good as people like The Hollies, and Manfred Mann who were at the higher end of that scene., and I did like those two, but cant compare them with the bands who were making seriously good music, and looking to develop new things every album.

Foxhound 10-14-2021 12:07 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302165)
I have never seen anything from The Beatles where they considered those two groups as a threat to them, because they weren't.


Why would you have seen anything? It's not something the Beatles would have cared to advertise after the fact. In truth the Beatles did not feel that their position at the top of the rock pantheon in 1964-65 was secure. Quite simply the history of pop music stars at the time was "Here today, gone tomorrow." My father and all other adults were constantly saying that the music of the Beatles and the other pop music stars would be completely forgotten in a few decades time.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302165)
Those two had their act, and stuck with it until they got fed up with it, and disappeared. The Beatles, The Stones, and the other quality bands progressed year upon year. Please Please Me to Abbey Road in leass than 7 years. Old Herman cant match that.


All true. But!!! That's not the point. You kicked off this discussion with this post:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups. Hardly in the same league as the great British bands that emerged during that era.


Yes, the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were cheesy pop groups in 1964-65. So were the Beatles until say December 1965 when they released Rubber Soul. That's exactly what the market demanded in those days. Had any of those bands been anything but cheesy pop groups, they would not have carved out a niche for themselves in pop music fandom at the time. Together with the Beatles, the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were defining acts of the early part of the British Invasion. You're making the mistake of dismissing the role they played in the British Invasion simply because looking back on them these days you find their music to be lightweight.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
If you like them, that's okay, but lets not pretend they were anywhere near the level of The Beatles, The Stones etc.


They were near the level of the Beatles and actually ahead of the Stones in the early part of the British Invasion until the last few weeks of 1964, and I'm saying this today even though I've been a huge fan of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Animals and the Kinks for over 55 years. The Beatles only began to demonstrate their superiority over the Dave Clark Five with the release of their Hard Days Night LP in July 1964. And it was only with their release of Time Is on My Side in September 1964 and their appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show in October 1964 that the Stones established themselves as any kind of noteworthy players in the British Invasion.

You're looking back at the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits and sneering now because unlike the Beatles and the Rolling Stones they never made the transition into album oriented rock. That of course is easy to do in retrospect but in 1964 most music observers would actually have guessed that none of the bands that were hitting the charts at the time would be remembered let alone survive into the 1970's. To imply now that you knew it all along just seems to be snootiness.

:drummer:

Black Night 10-15-2021 04:17 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I never rated those two at the time. Even then it was obvious they were not in the same league. Being popular is a different thing.

The Beatles early records were simple pop, but at the time they were new and exciting. The likes of Clark were copies that had nowhere else to go. The Beatles have often said they kept a close eye on The Stones, because they considered them serious rivals.

Foxhound 10-15-2021 05:46 PM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302176)
I never rated those two at the time. Even then it was obvious they were not in the same league. Being popular is a different thing.

It's funny. As a twelve year old at the time I wasn't buying records but I'd heard most of the big hits of the various British Invasion bands on my local Top 40 radio station. Admittedly I might not at the time have been able to identify which hit was by which band.

I do however remember being surprised at how well the Dave Clark Five did against the Beatles on the phone-in poll taken by CHLO radio in 1964.

I also very clearly remember discussing and comparing the Beatles to the Dave Clark Five with Ed Pranskus at a scout camp in which we were in the same tent in July of 1964. Pranskus was about a year older than me and far more worldly/sophisticated. It was his contention that the Dave Clark Five were a better band than the Beatles and that any guy aspiring to be cool would wear his hair combed over to the side like Dave Clark instead of straight down like the Beatles.

Ed Pranskus went on to become the drummer of Thundermug:





Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302176)
The Beatles have often said they kept a close eye on The Stones, because they considered them serious rivals.

Things weren't the same in the U.K. as they were in the States. The Rolling Stones became pop stars in the U.K. far more quickly than they did in the States. The Stones garnered the New Musical Express Award for the best British Rhythm and Blues band early in 1964. But it wasn't until the Rolling Stones appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show on 25 October 1964 where they performed their first American top ten hit Time Is on My Side that they first made a real impact on this side of the Atlantic and their popularity began to mushroom. And what transpired in the States is what's important here since that's what's implied by the term "British Invasion".

:smile:

Black Night 10-16-2021 05:52 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Well if old Ed said the DC5 were better than The Beatles it must be true, and history, and facts about the two have fooled us all this time.

Popularity does not mean better, or even good. On that basis, the Bay City Rollers, the Spice Girls, and many other flash in the pans are better then The Who.

The time was right for British groups to go over there and try and copy The Beatles, and an audience was waiting for them. Your two timed it right, but had no lasting quality.

Foxhound 10-16-2021 09:57 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302187)
Well if old Ed said the DC5 were better than The Beatles it must be true, and history, and facts about the two have fooled us all this time.

Popularity does not mean better, or even good. On that basis, the Bay City Rollers, the Spice Girls, and many other flash in the pans are better then The Who.

The time was right for British groups to go over there and try and copy The Beatles, and an audience was waiting for them. Your two timed it right, but had no lasting quality.

I agree (although they did record a few tracks of some lasting quality). Where I'm disagreeing is with your determination to minimize or even ignore the role that the Dave Clark Five and the Herman's Hermits played in the British Invasion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1299761)
I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups.

Both bands were in the forefront right behind the Beatles of the first wave of the British Invasion. They were both there big time in 1964. Any chronicling of the British Invasion that glosses over their role is at best historically inaccurate. And I have indeed encountered a number of accounts of the British Invasion that pass over the Dave Clark Five, Gerry & the Pacemakers and Herman's Hermits and segue immediately into the Rolling Stones, Animals, Kinks and the Yardbirds. This is retconning at its worst.

:foxhound:

Black Night 10-16-2021 10:06 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
I haven't glossed over their popularity, I merely find it difficult to understand why they got to the heights they did, considering their lack of quality, compared to many others, but I've answered the question really. They were in the right place at the right time, just when there was a huge audience clammering for other British groups. There were many other pop groups over here that had a few years success, and were better than them, but not in the same league as the "proper bands". These betetr groups didn't go to America at the right time though to sell the number of records Herman and Clark did, or get the widespread coverage needed.

Foxhound 10-16-2021 11:30 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302189)
...I merely find it difficult to understand why they got to the heights they did, considering their lack of quality, compared to many others, but I've answered the question really. They were in the right place at the right time, just when there was a huge audience clammering for other British groups.

Precisely. It doesn't help to have the better product if you don't bring that product to market when it's in demand. The Rolling Stones' in particular had very little in the way of product to offer in the early months of 1964. This only started to change with their release of It's All Over Now in June of 1964.

:smile:

Foxhound 10-17-2021 11:43 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Night (Post 1302100)



I'd pick the Stones, The Kinks, and the Moodies. I would stay in and wash my hair rather than bother with the others, who became stars on the coat tails of the class acts around them. It happens in every era.


Interesting going through the exercise of guessing which of those shows I would have found most tempting had I considered attending them as a thirteen year old on 25 April 1965. Now at the time I still wasn't buying any records and the only record my older sister had was the Elvis Presley single Kiss Me Quick/Suspicion. Therefore my preferences would have arisen almost entirely from what I'd been hearing on CHLO which was my local Top Forty station:

1.(tie) Rolling Stones

I remember really grooving to Play With Fire and The Last Time which were hitting big at the time. I'd also been impressed by their hard-edged bluesy Heart of Stone release. I'm not sure whether or not It's All Over Now had received any air play on CHLO when it was released the previous summer but that January I'd seen the T.A.M.I. Show in which the Stones had played It's All Over Now and Off the Hook both of which were to become early Stones' favourites of mine. But given that the running time of the T.A.M.I. Show was over two hours, I might by April have been hazy on which band played which song.

1.(tie) Kinks and the Moody Blues

The Kinks on the strength of their You Really Got Me, All Day and All of the Night and Tired of Waiting singles. Go Now by the Moody Blues was also hitting big at the time and the two bands for the price of one idea would have appealed to me.

3. Herman's Hermits

While even then I thought Mrs. Brown You've Got a Lovely Daughter was more than a bit hokey, Can't You Hear My Heartbeat and the Silhouettes single that was hitting big in April would have landed the bronze for Herman's Hermits.

4. (tie) Gerry and the Pacemakers

Don't Let the Sun Catch You Crying and Ferry Cross the Mersey are still among my very favourite ballads by British Invasion bands.

4. (tie) Dave Clark Five

A big name band with lots of Ed Sullivan Show appearances but nothing they'd released by April 1965 really grabbed me.


All that being said, my interest in attending any of these concerts was minimal at the time and they certainly weren't worth the asking price to me. The Dave Clark Five played two shows in the 4500 seat capacity Treasure Island Gardens hockey arena in my home town of London, Ontario on 3 November 1964. The Rolling Stones then played Treasure Island Gardens on 26 April 1965. I ignored both events. The fact that Treasure Island Gardens was on London's southern outskirts and nearly impossible to reach without a car played only a small part in my disinterest.

:dunno:

Black Night 10-18-2021 09:37 AM

Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!
 
You may have missed out on those shows, but I missed this one, which was in my home town in 1967. I was only 13, and my Dad wouldn't let me anywhere near, for fear I'd return a drug addict!! What a line up, especially for a small market town in rural England. Always regretted not being able to go.

https://www.ukrockfestivals.com/spaulding-festival.html

https://www.voicesofeastanglia.com/20...alding-67.html

Hendrix, Cream, and Pink Floyd all on one show, and I wasn't there.


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