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-   -   Downloading = stealing? (https://www.crf2.com/showthread.php?t=31610)

Lynch 11-03-2009 10:39 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Yeah, our Best Buys in town used to have a number of end displays that had headphones and you could hear tracks off of just about anything they had in catalog, but that was quite a while ago. Walmart used to have something similar that had parts of select tracks on albums you could hear, that's also gone.

The record store that was down the street from where I grew up has a lot of hard to find music (both new and used) and they used to have something set up like what you described about Disc Replay. Sadly, that's also gone the way of the dodo. Plus that place is about 30 miles from where I live now, so I don't get there too often anymore.

Didn't know about Borders though, I'll have to check that out (if I can find one). I wonder about Barnes and Noble.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 11:45 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynch (Post 958692)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958580)

That just means that they did the right thing after having done the wrong thing. I suppose that if one is seriously planning to buy everything one downloads then that mitigates the problem, but why not just buy it anyway and spare one's self the risk?


However, with purchased music (and video), you buy it, you own it, even if it sucks.

Do you buy shoes or clothes without trying them on first?
Do you buy a car without trying it first?
Do you buy TVs or stereos without checking them out first?
Do you buy furniture couches or beds without sitting/lying on them first?

But with music, movies, etc, we don't get that option. Somehow I doubt that most people download 'stuff' with full intention of purchasing it later. Sure, some exceptions, but they are just that, the exception. I believe that at least some people download first, to check it out. If they like it, then they purchase.

Of course, there are others that download thousands of songs with zero intention of ever purchasing them, whereas the record companies and artists never would have gotten any money from these people in the first place. That being said, are is the recording industry -really- losing anything from these people?

Have you read ANY of my other posts? There are more ways to hear music and decide whether or not you like it or not besides downloading your own copy.

Yeah, I try on shoes, clothes, and test-drive cars. I don't take them home, use them for an indefinite period of time, then bring them back and say, "Now I'm ready to purchase."

NDF 11-03-2009 03:08 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958747)
Yeah, I try on shoes, clothes, and test-drive cars. I don't take them home, use them for an indefinite period of time, then bring them back and say, "Now I'm ready to purchase."

Sure you don't take shoes home, but what if I told you that you had to buy three pairs in three different sizes of the shoe you want in order to get the size you DO want?

I'm expecting more out of the industry and it's up to them to adapt to change. Illegal downloading is making them change. Nothing else would and they would have continued to make us all buy entire CD's for one song, and not even widely offered headphones in music stores to preview music had it not been for things like illegal downloading.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 03:33 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NDF (Post 958839)
Sure you don't take shoes home, but what if I told you that you had to buy three pairs in three different sizes of the shoe you want in order to get the size you DO want?

I'm expecting more out of the industry and it's up to them to adapt to change. Illegal downloading is making them change. Nothing else would and they would have continued to make us all buy entire CD's for one song, and not even widely offered headphones in music stores to preview music had it not been for things like illegal downloading.

It's up to you to know what size you need and to select it appropriately. No one's forcing you to buy anything. You're just not legally allowed to take two tracks out of a 16-track album because you only like two tracks, if that's the point of your "shoe size" analogy. In any case, it's a faulty analogy because shoes that are not your size are completely useless, but the other 14 tracks of a CD that you don't like at first blush are still perfectly satisfactory product. And if you still aren't satisfied, you can just download the two tracks you like for a buck apiece at Amazon.com. There are choices galore these days. The main thing driving the desire to download is to get stuff for free.

You expect more out of the industry? OK, start NDF Records, record some artists, and give it all away on the internet. If your business model is a winner, I'll come work for you.

annie 11-03-2009 04:07 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by METALPRIEST (Post 958695)
I am able to sample parts or whole CD's at my stores.


That is nice but I live 45 minutes away from the only record store in this area and I am unable to drive. And if I do get there, I go there knowing what I am going to buy in advance because my "driver" doesn't have time to sit and wait all day while I listen to music. The computer is my only connection with the outside world and I buy most of my CDs through Amazon. To test drive, I download mp3s from file sharing and if I like it I buy it and delete the download, if I don't like it I delete the download straight off. It is that simple. I don't want junk filling up my hard drive and slowing down my pc.

Exilemainstreet 11-03-2009 04:20 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Denim (Post 958230)
No, in fact it is my way of getting back all the money I spent on the Ticketmaster charges in my lifetime.
(Is that excuse lame enough for you?):lol:

and for all the vinyl records we all bought back in the day that had one good song and 9 clunkers. the record industry was lazy and spoiled and often gave a poor product. For every Darkness on the Edge of Town and Sticky Fingers there's a thousand Andy Gibbs Shadow Dancing and Lou Graham solo records that they put out containing poor, reprehensible music.

hightea 11-03-2009 04:34 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Exilemainstreet (Post 958857)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Denim (Post 958230)
No, in fact it is my way of getting back all the money I spent on the Ticketmaster charges in my lifetime.
(Is that excuse lame enough for you?):lol:

and for all the vinyl records we all bought back in the day that had one good song and 9 clunkers. the record industry was lazy and spoiled and often gave a poor product. For every Darkness on the Edge of Town and Sticky Fingers there's a thousand Andy Gibbs Shadow Dancing and Lou Graham solo records that they put out containing poor, reprehensible music.

this is another point. I'm now getting accused of illegally downloading because I test my music before I buy it. Back in the day I would only get to hear one song and then deside if I should buy it. Then when I did and the rest sucked I didn't get my money back. Today I'm sampling before I buy or don't buy. Maybe that is why the music industry is complaining/failing back in the day they robbed us and now people know what they are buying because they download it first.

Zombeels 11-03-2009 05:04 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Don't forget the RIAA only projects music gains and losses by their artists and not the independent artists. I don't have any data but I'm willing to bet the sales of independent artists have risen.

flipflop 11-03-2009 05:35 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958843)
Quote:

Originally Posted by NDF (Post 958839)
Sure you don't take shoes home, but what if I told you that you had to buy three pairs in three different sizes of the shoe you want in order to get the size you DO want?

I'm expecting more out of the industry and it's up to them to adapt to change. Illegal downloading is making them change. Nothing else would and they would have continued to make us all buy entire CD's for one song, and not even widely offered headphones in music stores to preview music had it not been for things like illegal downloading.

It's up to you to know what size you need and to select it appropriately. No one's forcing you to buy anything. You're just not legally allowed to take two tracks out of a 16-track album because you only like two tracks, if that's the point of your "shoe size" analogy. In any case, it's a faulty analogy because shoes that are not your size are completely useless, but the other 14 tracks of a CD that you don't like at first blush are still perfectly satisfactory product. And if you still aren't satisfied, you can just download the two tracks you like for a buck apiece at Amazon.com. There are choices galore these days. The main thing driving the desire to download is to get stuff for free.

You expect more out of the industry? OK, start NDF Records, record some artists, and give it all away on the internet. If your business model is a winner, I'll come work for you.

:lol: :lol: :headbange

Class A posts throughout this thread, dkmonroe! Exactly!! There are plenty of legal ways to sample albums or just buy the indivual songs off an album. I think all of us can afford the .99 or whatever a song costs...

Only problem is that it's easier to download the full album on torrent sites. And people like NDF feel fully entitled to do just that. They want artists to give their music for free - sure, but let the artists decide. It's all about who's got the right to decide what to give away and what not to.

This whole thing is often seen as a black and white issue - you're pro og con downloading, period! BUT there are plenty of legal ways to check out music for free.

Annie: now, would I rig a poll like that?? :lol: Actually I do want the discussion and I want the nuances in the discussion, not least. And they were provided in clear english by dkmonroe. Awesome posts.

NDF 11-03-2009 06:47 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958843)
In any case, it's a faulty analogy because shoes that are not your size are completely useless, but the other 14 tracks of a CD that you don't like at first blush are still perfectly satisfactory product.

A perfectly satisfactory product that I don't want. A product is useless if I never use it. Shoes, tracks I don't like, both useless.

Quote:

And if you still aren't satisfied, you can just download the two tracks you like for a buck apiece at Amazon.com.
And why do you think NOW we can do that?

Quote:

There are choices galore these days.
These days yes, 10 years ago no. It all seemed to correspond remarkably well with the development of things like Napster.

Quote:

The main thing driving the desire to download is to get stuff for free.
Of course. If somebody offers something for free, people are going to take. Do you honestly think saying "oh, that's illegal" and trying to institute a punitive measure is going to have any long term affect? No one went around and starting putting VHS copiers in jail. It was too late, which is my point. In retro, it's so irrelevent to even talk about VHS copiers as ever having broken the law. This particular argument will become increasingly irrelevent over time as well. That is once we realize the world isn't coming to an end.

Quote:

OK, start NDF Records, record some artists, and give it all away on the internet.
There are artists who do that already and still pull a profit and stay in the top 10 of the Billboards doing it. How can that be if they are giving it all away?

Offering something for free is not a bad business model, especially when it gets exposure and brings people to your concerts which is where almost all artists get the majority of their money anyways.

BeatlesFan3287 11-03-2009 06:47 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I clicked the third option.

I only download albums that are out of print or they're only available through some 100 dollar import.

mostfurious 11-03-2009 09:52 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Legally I guess it's stealing, but honestly; there's not much I can do about it. Music is too big of a part of my life to not continue to explore it, and it's not my fault every music store in my vicinity only sells the biggest known classic rock albums and everything else is under 5 yrs old.. that's not to say I don't try and find what I'm looking for at 2nd hand stores, but that's always a crapshoot.

AcousticWalden 11-03-2009 11:11 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Loaded question, for me No. I download and do not break the law. There is plenty of downloads for free from live concerts to artist supported music.

For sampling I get 25 songs to play from Rhapsody each month. Ive almost signed up for monthly fee to "test" songs, but those 25 tunes gets me by with sampling before buying. Its really too bad the music industry just does not get it. As with many examples in this thread, the industry should stand behind its product and provide a way to hear music before one buys.

bluesmanccs 11-03-2009 11:18 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
If downloading is stealing then all the people that in the past made tapes from albums lent by friends were also stealing, because instead of buying the records they illegally recorded the songs from some other source. How many of us did that?

I don't support people downloading everything they find anywhere and never buying the music, but I admit that I download from time to time, especially what I consider obscure stuff from decades ago, or some album from a modern band I don't have a clue what they sound. If I find the CD at a local store and they let me hear it first, I'm not going to download it, but there's a huge amount of music you don't find at local stores.

for example:

A Deep Purple album I don't have and would like to: I buy it

An album from, say 1971, from an obscure from Norway mentioned by someone in a blog, and not even norwegians remember that band existed :lol: : probably I'll download it :D

Downloading to me it's illegal only because there's a law written somewhere that says you can't copy music without permission (well, a restrictive law in U.S.A., ....where I live it isn't that restrictive). I'm not sure to call it "stealin".

Reverend Rock 11-03-2009 11:38 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
For me personally, this whole debate is such a dead horse now.

Wanna know why?

Well, once upon a time I was a full-time songwriter, and had no reason to think I wouldn't continue to be one as long as I wished.

Illegal downloading is a big part of the reason that is no longer the case.

So yeah, it's stealing. I know. I got robbed of a career.

Now if you'll excuse me, I will disappear...

white_lancer 11-04-2009 01:42 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Yeah, I consider it stealing, and I don't do it personally. I figure that if I really love music, I'll have the patience to wait until I have the funds to purchase it--after all, hunger is the best seasoning. ;)

If I want to try a few songs off an album before I buy it, I use last.fm.

dkmonroe 11-04-2009 08:01 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NDF (Post 958890)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958843)
In any case, it's a faulty analogy because shoes that are not your size are completely useless, but the other 14 tracks of a CD that you don't like at first blush are still perfectly satisfactory product.

A perfectly satisfactory product that I don't want. A product is useless if I never use it. Shoes, tracks I don't like, both useless.

Quote:

And if you still aren't satisfied, you can just download the two tracks you like for a buck apiece at Amazon.com.
And why do you think NOW we can do that?

Quote:

There are choices galore these days.
These days yes, 10 years ago no. It all seemed to correspond remarkably well with the development of things like Napster.

Quote:

The main thing driving the desire to download is to get stuff for free.
Of course. If somebody offers something for free, people are going to take. Do you honestly think saying "oh, that's illegal" and trying to institute a punitive measure is going to have any long term affect? No one went around and starting putting VHS copiers in jail. It was too late, which is my point. In retro, it's so irrelevent to even talk about VHS copiers as ever having broken the law. This particular argument will become increasingly irrelevent over time as well. That is once we realize the world isn't coming to an end.

Quote:

OK, start NDF Records, record some artists, and give it all away on the internet.
There are artists who do that already and still pull a profit and stay in the top 10 of the Billboards doing it. How can that be if they are giving it all away?

Offering something for free is not a bad business model, especially when it gets exposure and brings people to your concerts which is where almost all artists get the majority of their money anyways.

I could respond to all this point by point but it would be useless. It isn't 10 years ago. Perfectly acceptable alternatives to illegal downloading exist if you care at all about playing by the rules and not breaking the law if you can possibly avoid it. You have nothing to complain about.

dkmonroe 11-04-2009 08:03 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flipflop (Post 958875)
Annie: now, would I rig a poll like that?? :lol: Actually I do want the discussion and I want the nuances in the discussion, not least. And they were provided in clear english by dkmonroe. Awesome posts.

Thanks, man! :thumbsup:


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