Classic Rock Forums

Classic Rock Forums (https://www.crf2.com/forum.php)
-   Music Polls and Tournaments (https://www.crf2.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30)
-   -   Downloading = stealing? (https://www.crf2.com/showthread.php?t=31610)

flipflop 11-02-2009 12:11 PM

Downloading = stealing?
 
Again, easy downloading poll - yes or no? :D

flipflop 11-02-2009 12:13 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I voted yes, duh :lol:

NDF 11-02-2009 12:25 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
It's comparable to recording my favorite program on a VHS tape. I don't think it's comparable to stealing a product out of a store, so no.

Phantastico 11-02-2009 12:30 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I'm going to say "no" because there's "legal" downloading and there's "illegal" downloading. And this was not clarified in the poll.

ShuffleItAll 11-02-2009 12:31 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
As most posters here know, I'm definitely not against filesharing but I voted yes, because the way the laws are now it is classified as stealing. So, yes. I'd still say that technically it's more like industrial espionage but anyways...

I'm totally against the way the riaa and everyone is acting though.

flipflop 11-02-2009 02:32 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NDF (Post 958102)
It's comparable to recording my favorite program on a VHS tape. I don't think it's comparable to stealing a product out of a store, so no.

It is directly comparable to stealing a product out of a store. The fact that it is online has nothing to do with it - it's not like recording something online or anything. You either have the product or you don't. You've either paid for it or you haven't.

Taping off the tv hardly compares to 1,000s and 1,000s of downloaded - free - digital copies online... noooo sir. Most people are happy to accept free digital copies of album - they can't tell the difference between the copy and the original. Why should they bother buying the album (or the iTunes download or whatever) if they're happy with the clean copy they got for free??

Taping off the tv or the radio - or taping off a vinyl album... everyone could tell it was a copy.

Fairly important distinction. The sheer quantity as well - even the most aggressive tape trader back then would have problems making a 100 copies of any given album - and distributing them too, not least. Fairly important distinction #2...

Quality, availability, convenience... digital downloading is just another beast entirely from taping music or tv 20-30 years ago.

flipflop 11-02-2009 02:33 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantastico (Post 958108)
I'm going to say "no" because there's "legal" downloading and there's "illegal" downloading. And this was not clarified in the poll.


So you're trying to get off on a technicality? Pffft, sure you shouldn't have been a lawyer?! ;) :lol:

That 70s Guy 11-02-2009 02:36 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I voted no

Phantastico 11-02-2009 02:40 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flipflop (Post 958177)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantastico (Post 958108)
I'm going to say "no" because there's "legal" downloading and there's "illegal" downloading. And this was not clarified in the poll.


So you're trying to get off on a technicality? Pffft, sure you shouldn't have been a lawyer?! ;) :lol:

:thumbsup:

I went to law school for six months, but dropped out.

I know you meant "illegal" downloading, but I'm just kidding with you (and might I add, you take it well).
:thumbsup:

We've been down this road before. I have downloaded a few albums from Amazon, and I have downloaded a ton of unreleased, mostly live recordings, from various private sites.

I will also admit that I once tried to download an out-of-print album from Pirate Bay, but then my PC was attacked by malware. So I won't be going there again.

My answer is still "no"...

:beer:

flipflop 11-02-2009 03:13 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Well... I voted yes BUT I should've used the third option! :lol:

I do download but I make up lame excuses for why I 'have to' :D I still buy the same amount of albums - my wife can vouch for that :muffin:

BUT it's still stealing. I'd never steal an album out of a record store BUT when it's online I think most of us FEEL that 'it's different'. But it's not. That's all I'm trying to say.

And yeah, I figured you were kidding on the 'illegal' thing... not like we haven't been down this road before :lol:

This discussion should be made into a board game, come to think of it...

the roser 11-02-2009 03:14 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
If you steal a record from the record store, the record is gone. Nothing is gone if I download a song, therefore, no theft. Not stealing.

hightea 11-02-2009 03:19 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the roser (Post 958204)
If you steal a record from the record store, the record is gone. Nothing is gone if I download a song, therefore, no theft. Not stealing.

bingo hence why I put option three. :tongue:

actually I'll go further-I download plenty of singles and whole albums from a new artist from their website. How is this stealing when they offer it. :tongue:

Also download plenty of live show that aren't available to buy.
Also download bonus stuff that comes when you buy an album

flipflop 11-02-2009 03:24 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the roser (Post 958204)
If you steal a record from the record store, the record is gone. Nothing is gone if I download a song, therefore, no theft. Not stealing.

Because it is online 'it isn't really there'...? Are you sure you want to stand by that comment? :lol: :pound: :rofl:

the roser 11-02-2009 03:30 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Explain why I'm wrong. Smilies don't scare me.

ShuffleItAll 11-02-2009 04:07 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the roser (Post 958204)
If you steal a record from the record store, the record is gone. Nothing is gone if I download a song, therefore, no theft. Not stealing.

Industrial espionage man!

Beat Less 11-02-2009 04:12 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
If I download something I like I put it on a must buy list. If the list gats too big I stop D'ling until I buy all the albums I want.Therefore the artists stiil gets my money

Sooo option three

Denim 11-02-2009 04:35 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
No, in fact it is my way of getting back all the money I spent on the Ticketmaster charges in my lifetime.
(Is that excuse lame enough for you?):lol:

flipflop 11-02-2009 05:56 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Denim (Post 958230)
No, in fact it is my way of getting back all the money I spent on the Ticketmaster charges in my lifetime.
(Is that excuse lame enough for you?):lol:


Plenty lame, thanks :D ;)

roser: :poke: :poke: *yes, you're plen'y scar'd... I can smell it!* :razz:

tacobender44 11-02-2009 07:05 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
in my mind and opinion, its obviously stealing, a very minor level of stealing but still stealing, because its someone's creative property

but imo, the debate about file sharing isn't whether it's considered stealing or not, but if this low level of stealing is justified, and i consider it to be justified

MsHiFi 11-02-2009 09:48 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Personally I somehow didn't get into that "download" mentality. All in all I've downloaded very little; mainly a few live bootleg recordings (another subject altogether, I know), songs that the artist themselves put out there for ppl to have and odd little rarities that otherwise can't be found/bought.

As far as downloading an album that's available at the local Best Buy or for order on Amazon or other means for purchase: NO!!!!!!

Dragon Phoenix 11-02-2009 10:48 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Downloading is (still) legal in the Netherlands, making my choice obvious. I have downloaded lots of obscure prog you never see in shops, and I have bought at least 20 CD's of bands I had not even heard of before I downloaded them.

hightea 11-02-2009 11:13 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragon Phoenix (Post 958377)
I have downloaded lots of obscure prog you never see in shops

Yeah here is another point. Old out of print and impossible to buy albums another reason I don't consider it stealing.

annie 11-03-2009 12:07 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I think this whole poll is like a loaded question...Flip obviously has an opinion and is looking for a way to vent it, regardless of the fact that we have been over all this before.

TrekkiELO 11-03-2009 02:18 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
No

annie 11-03-2009 07:14 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
I voted #3 because shared file downloading is like a test drive before you buy a new car. And #3 is another reason that this poll is like a loaded question...sad ass because your opinion is different from that of the poll-meister.

zeppboy 11-03-2009 07:44 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
There is no clear cut answer. Some artist don't care and even make their songs available to download. There are also a lot of other variables to consider so I don't see it as a simple yes or no answer.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 07:57 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958556)
There is no clear cut answer. Some artist don't care and even make their songs available to download. There are also a lot of other variables to consider so I don't see it as a simple yes or no answer.

Not that many variables. If the artist puts his music on a website and says, "Hey, download this!", it's obviously not stealing. If someone takes a commercially available CD and converts it to Mp3 and uploads it to a Bit Torrent and you download it, then that's stealing. Or, if you wanna split hairs, it's unauthorized duplicating and illegal downloading.

Basically, if the party who holds the copyright says you can do it, it's OK. If they don't, it's not OK.

zeppboy 11-03-2009 08:05 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958568)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958556)
There is no clear cut answer. Some artist don't care and even make their songs available to download. There are also a lot of other variables to consider so I don't see it as a simple yes or no answer.

Not that many variables. If the artist puts his music on a website and says, "Hey, download this!", it's obviously not stealing. If someone takes a commercially available CD and converts it to Mp3 and uploads it to a Bit Torrent and you download it, then that's stealing. Or, if you wanna split hairs, it's unauthorized duplicating and illegal downloading.

Basically, if the party who holds the copyright says you can do it, it's OK. If they don't, it's not OK.

Ah but there are variables. What if someone downloads an album to see if they like it and then decide to buy it. Is that really stealing if they bought the record after downloading it?

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 08:20 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958572)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958568)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958556)
There is no clear cut answer. Some artist don't care and even make their songs available to download. There are also a lot of other variables to consider so I don't see it as a simple yes or no answer.

Not that many variables. If the artist puts his music on a website and says, "Hey, download this!", it's obviously not stealing. If someone takes a commercially available CD and converts it to Mp3 and uploads it to a Bit Torrent and you download it, then that's stealing. Or, if you wanna split hairs, it's unauthorized duplicating and illegal downloading.

Basically, if the party who holds the copyright says you can do it, it's OK. If they don't, it's not OK.

Ah but there are variables. What if someone downloads an album to see if they like it and then decide to buy it. Is that really stealing if they bought the record after downloading it?

That just means that they did the right thing after having done the wrong thing. I suppose that if one is seriously planning to buy everything one downloads then that mitigates the problem, but why not just buy it anyway and spare one's self the risk?

I completely understand the idea that people can and often do download all or part of an album and then fall in love with it and buy it. Some savvy artists have long been making a few representative tracks available for download on their websites hoping that it will increase sales, and that makes perfect sense, just like giving away free samples of cheese or chips in the market to encourage sales. The problem is when people take it upon themselves to give other people's work away.

If one is really serious about using the Internet to explore new music, just go to any artists MySpace page and there will be streaming music there that you can play as many times as you want. As I said in another thread, you don't need your own personal Mp3 copy of music in order to hear it and develop an appreciation for it. There's ways to do these things within the law. Problem is people don't want to care about the law, they just want what they want when they want it.

zeppboy 11-03-2009 08:32 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958580)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958572)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958568)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958556)
There is no clear cut answer. Some artist don't care and even make their songs available to download. There are also a lot of other variables to consider so I don't see it as a simple yes or no answer.

Not that many variables. If the artist puts his music on a website and says, "Hey, download this!", it's obviously not stealing. If someone takes a commercially available CD and converts it to Mp3 and uploads it to a Bit Torrent and you download it, then that's stealing. Or, if you wanna split hairs, it's unauthorized duplicating and illegal downloading.

Basically, if the party who holds the copyright says you can do it, it's OK. If they don't, it's not OK.

Ah but there are variables. What if someone downloads an album to see if they like it and then decide to buy it. Is that really stealing if they bought the record after downloading it?

That just means that they did the right thing after having done the wrong thing. I suppose that if one is seriously planning to buy everything one downloads then that mitigates the problem, but why not just buy it anyway and spare one's self the risk?

I completely understand the idea that people can and often do download all or part of an album and then fall in love with it and buy it. Some savvy artists have long been making a few representative tracks available for download on their websites hoping that it will increase sales, and that makes perfect sense, just like giving away free samples of cheese or chips in the market to encourage sales. The problem is when people take it upon themselves to give other people's work away.

If one is really serious about using the Internet to explore new music, just go to any artists MySpace page and there will be streaming music there that you can play as many times as you want. As I said in another thread, you don't need your own personal Mp3 copy of music in order to hear it and develop an appreciation for it. There's ways to do these things within the law. Problem is people don't want to care about the law, they just want what they want when they want it.

It may not be worth it to buy hence test driving it first. Another problem with saying nothing should be available to download is that you are entitled to a backup for personal use. I know some people download albums they already have to have a backup or put on their MP3 player.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 09:43 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958583)
It may not be worth it to buy hence test driving it first. Another problem with saying nothing should be available to download is that you are entitled to a backup for personal use. I know some people download albums they already have to have a backup or put on their MP3 player.

It's not a matter of "nothing being available for download", it's a matter of who makes what available. And I can't believe that it's significantly easier to download than it is to make a personal copy of one's own CD's with Foobar or EAC.

zeppboy 11-03-2009 09:44 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958654)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958583)
It may not be worth it to buy hence test driving it first. Another problem with saying nothing should be available to download is that you are entitled to a backup for personal use. I know some people download albums they already have to have a backup or put on their MP3 player.

It's not a matter of "nothing being available for download", it's a matter of who makes what available. And I can't believe that it's significantly easier to download than it is to make a personal copy of one's own CD's with Foobar or EAC.

Believe it or not but not everyone knows how to rip an album. Sometimes the hardware might be a limiting factor as well. Here is an interesting article from Tom's Hardware on downloading.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Pirate-F...news-5001.html

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 10:02 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zeppboy (Post 958658)
Believe it or not but not everyone knows how to rip an album. Sometimes the hardware might be a limiting factor as well. Here is an interesting article from Tom's Hardware on downloading.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Pirate-F...news-5001.html

Haven't read the article yet, but, huh? People can figure out Bit Torrent but can't rip a CD? :lol:

I'll tell on myself here and admit that I actually considered using a Bit Torrent to get some bootleg live recording a few years ago. I read over the instructions and said, "This is too much trouble." Never tried it again.

zeppboy 11-03-2009 10:04 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Sometimes it takes less time to download than to rip depending on the hardware. It is also much less demanding on your computer.

Lynch 11-03-2009 10:20 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958580)

That just means that they did the right thing after having done the wrong thing. I suppose that if one is seriously planning to buy everything one downloads then that mitigates the problem, but why not just buy it anyway and spare one's self the risk?


However, with purchased music (and video), you buy it, you own it, even if it sucks.

Do you buy shoes or clothes without trying them on first?
Do you buy a car without trying it first?
Do you buy TVs or stereos without checking them out first?
Do you buy furniture couches or beds without sitting/lying on them first?

But with music, movies, etc, we don't get that option. Somehow I doubt that most people download 'stuff' with full intention of purchasing it later. Sure, some exceptions, but they are just that, the exception. I believe that at least some people download first, to check it out. If they like it, then they purchase.

Of course, there are others that download thousands of songs with zero intention of ever purchasing them, whereas the record companies and artists never would have gotten any money from these people in the first place. That being said, are is the recording industry -really- losing anything from these people?

Lynch 11-03-2009 10:29 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by METALPRIEST (Post 958695)
I am able to sample parts or whole CD's at my stores.

I wish more stores did this.

Lynch 11-03-2009 10:39 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Yeah, our Best Buys in town used to have a number of end displays that had headphones and you could hear tracks off of just about anything they had in catalog, but that was quite a while ago. Walmart used to have something similar that had parts of select tracks on albums you could hear, that's also gone.

The record store that was down the street from where I grew up has a lot of hard to find music (both new and used) and they used to have something set up like what you described about Disc Replay. Sadly, that's also gone the way of the dodo. Plus that place is about 30 miles from where I live now, so I don't get there too often anymore.

Didn't know about Borders though, I'll have to check that out (if I can find one). I wonder about Barnes and Noble.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 11:45 AM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynch (Post 958692)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958580)

That just means that they did the right thing after having done the wrong thing. I suppose that if one is seriously planning to buy everything one downloads then that mitigates the problem, but why not just buy it anyway and spare one's self the risk?


However, with purchased music (and video), you buy it, you own it, even if it sucks.

Do you buy shoes or clothes without trying them on first?
Do you buy a car without trying it first?
Do you buy TVs or stereos without checking them out first?
Do you buy furniture couches or beds without sitting/lying on them first?

But with music, movies, etc, we don't get that option. Somehow I doubt that most people download 'stuff' with full intention of purchasing it later. Sure, some exceptions, but they are just that, the exception. I believe that at least some people download first, to check it out. If they like it, then they purchase.

Of course, there are others that download thousands of songs with zero intention of ever purchasing them, whereas the record companies and artists never would have gotten any money from these people in the first place. That being said, are is the recording industry -really- losing anything from these people?

Have you read ANY of my other posts? There are more ways to hear music and decide whether or not you like it or not besides downloading your own copy.

Yeah, I try on shoes, clothes, and test-drive cars. I don't take them home, use them for an indefinite period of time, then bring them back and say, "Now I'm ready to purchase."

NDF 11-03-2009 03:08 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkmonroe (Post 958747)
Yeah, I try on shoes, clothes, and test-drive cars. I don't take them home, use them for an indefinite period of time, then bring them back and say, "Now I'm ready to purchase."

Sure you don't take shoes home, but what if I told you that you had to buy three pairs in three different sizes of the shoe you want in order to get the size you DO want?

I'm expecting more out of the industry and it's up to them to adapt to change. Illegal downloading is making them change. Nothing else would and they would have continued to make us all buy entire CD's for one song, and not even widely offered headphones in music stores to preview music had it not been for things like illegal downloading.

dkmonroe 11-03-2009 03:33 PM

Re: Downloading = stealing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NDF (Post 958839)
Sure you don't take shoes home, but what if I told you that you had to buy three pairs in three different sizes of the shoe you want in order to get the size you DO want?

I'm expecting more out of the industry and it's up to them to adapt to change. Illegal downloading is making them change. Nothing else would and they would have continued to make us all buy entire CD's for one song, and not even widely offered headphones in music stores to preview music had it not been for things like illegal downloading.

It's up to you to know what size you need and to select it appropriately. No one's forcing you to buy anything. You're just not legally allowed to take two tracks out of a 16-track album because you only like two tracks, if that's the point of your "shoe size" analogy. In any case, it's a faulty analogy because shoes that are not your size are completely useless, but the other 14 tracks of a CD that you don't like at first blush are still perfectly satisfactory product. And if you still aren't satisfied, you can just download the two tracks you like for a buck apiece at Amazon.com. There are choices galore these days. The main thing driving the desire to download is to get stuff for free.

You expect more out of the industry? OK, start NDF Records, record some artists, and give it all away on the internet. If your business model is a winner, I'll come work for you.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Hosted by: F5 / MVH Internet Services

Copyright 2005-2018, CRF2.com