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View Poll Results: Which band do you prefer?
Dave Clark Five 7 87.50%
Herman's Hermits 1 12.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-19-2021, 01:29 PM   #19
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

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I had to laugh at the cover of "The Dave Clark Five vs. The Beatles" posted above, where Dave Says "I'll duel with Ringo". Dave Clark didn't even play on most of the DC Five hits; they used a session drummer. He couldn't carry Ringo's tea towel.

Agreed. The press in the UK tried to build it up as a rivalry, because DC5 came from London I think, but they were light years off The Beatles, and most of the other bands that took their music more seriously back them. They were leagues apart, and the DC5 should have been embarrassed by attempted comparisons with The Beatles. Hermans Hermits were their level. Henry the 8th indeed!!
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The press in the UK tried to build it up as a rivalry, because DC5 came from London I think, but they were light years off The Beatles, and most of the other bands that took their music more seriously back them. They were leagues apart....
Once again you're completely failing to put things into the perspective of the time or else you're conflating the 1964-65 period with later years. What was demanded in 1964 and through most of 1965 from a band was a steady stream of Top Forty hits. And the Dave Clark Five delivered.

And just how many bands were there that "took their music more seriously" up to the early months of 1965? The Beatles? The Kinks? The Zombies? Actually no. None of these bands were anything more than good honest rock bands at the time. They wouldn't have been as successful as they were had they been anything but. Yes, the Animals and the Rolling Stones had scored a degree of chart success with edgier rhythm 'n blues tunes, but that's about it until mid-1965. The Yardbirds and all the rest were still trying to take flight in early 1965.

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They did a few decent pop songs, but they were nowhere near the Beatles, The Stones, The Animals, The kinks, or others that never made it over there during that era, such as The Hollies.
Quite simply I can only name a very few bands that had emerged by the spring of 1965 who were better than the two bands that are the subject of this poll - the Beatles, Animals, Kinks, Zombies and Rolling Stones. That's pretty good company.

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...the DC5 should have been embarrassed by attempted comparisons with The Beatles.
Embarrassed? Why? That would have been a completely brainless reaction on the part of the Dave Clark Five. I rather think they were glad of the publicity and happily cashing whatever royalty cheques the publicity helped them garner.

The Beatles were certainly put off by those comparisons, but that's because in 1964-65 they didn't feel at all secure in their positions at the top of the rock pantheon. After all history clearly showed that when it came to pop music success, it was here today gone tomorrow.

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You prove my point that they weren't very good when you list Henry the 8th in the top ten songs between them. It was drivel.
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Hermans Hermits were their level. Henry the 8th indeed!!
Your sneers notwithstanding, I'm Henry VIII, I Am brilliantly did the job for which it was intended. It was a smash hit on the airwaves and was the single fastest-selling song in history to that point.

Was it simplistic? Absolutely! But complexity isn't necessary in good music, especially not pop music. A strong argument can be made that increased complexity is more often than not a negative.

Was it anything but a British dance hall sendoff? No. But that was fine in early 1965! And hopefully here you're not a fan of the Beatles' White Album because that's full of British dance hall sendoffs and other maudlin tracks which was decidedly not fine by late 1968.

Finally, I'm Henry VIII, I Am splendidly passed the test of time. It was a tremendous influence on no less a band of luminaries than the Ramones and was thus instrumental in inspiring the punk rock movement ten years later:

Did punk begin with I'm Henry VIII? - Althouse

The bottom line with respect to these two bands is that I still enjoy a handful of tracks by each band. But I can name well over a dozen big name bands from the 1970's to the 1990's from whose entire catalogues I can name no more than one track I really like - e.g. Black Sabbath, Kiss, Queen, AC/DC, Electric Light Orchestra, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Rush, Guns 'n' Roses, Bon Jovi, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc.

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Old 09-21-2021, 07:06 AM   #21
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

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Finally, I'm Henry VIII, I Am splendidly passed the test of time. It was a tremendous influence on no less a band of luminaries than the Ramones and was thus instrumental in inspiring the punk rock movement ten years later:

Did punk begin with I'm Henry VIII? - Althouse
I think "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks and "My Generation" by The Who were more of a precursor to punk than "Henry The Eighth".
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:37 AM   #22
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I think "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks and "My Genreation" by The Who were more of a precursor to punk than "Henry The Eighth".
I agree. I'd also add 96 Tears by ? & the Mysterians and Wild Thing, With a Girl Like You and I Can't Control Myself by the Troggs to the list of 1960's songs that most inspired punk. Incidentally I saw the Dead Boys perform With a Girl Like You onstage at the New Yorker Cinema on Yonge Street in Toronto in the fall of 1977. Twas very impressive to be sure!

Admittedly I was surprised to learn that I'm Henry VIII, I Am was such an important creative influence on the Ramones. But then again as a reaction to the excesses that had crept into mainstream rock by the mid-1970's, punk was initially all about returning rock to its two minute single roots.

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Old 09-21-2021, 12:14 PM   #23
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Dave Clark didn't even play on most of the DC Five hits; they used a session drummer.

But the reason Dave Clark often used session drummer Bobby Graham in the studio is the same reason that a lawyer doesn't type his own briefs even if he's the best typist in town. His time is better spent doing more valuable work.

Dave Clark was the founder and manager of the Dave Clark Five. He was also not only the writer or co-writer with other band members of nearly all their hits, he arranged as well as produced their recordings. With Bobby Graham very capably duplicating Dave Clark's signature builds and rolls, Clark's time was therefore better spent behind the dials and switches of the sound board in the studio's control room.

Before becoming recording stars, the Dave Clark Five had served a long internship playing clubs and theatres in the United Kingdom. By 1962 they were a regular feature attraction in England's extensive Mecca ballroom chain. In fact now that I've delved deeper into the Dave Clark Five because of the questions/issues raised in this thread, I've actually acquired a greater appreciation for the band:

Dave Clark Five - Encyclopedia.com

Dave Clark - Sound&Vision

For one thing right from the outset Dave Clark cleverly kept the rights to all the Dave Clark Five music masters thus differentiating himself from almost all his less prescient contemporaries who all too often found themselves left with very little but the fame from their music success.

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Old 09-24-2021, 01:12 PM   #24
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

Henry the 8th may have been a smash hit, so have many other awful records been over the years.
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Old 09-24-2021, 04:27 PM   #25
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I'm Henry VIII, I Am is a harmless ditty that wasn't intended to be anything but a jaunty radio single. It doesn't merit aggravation.

I've actually seen Herman's Hermits twice including at the Canadian National Exposition in Toronto in 2012 where they were part of a double bill with Paul Revere & the Raiders. Though Peter Noone and Paul Revere were the only original members from either band on stage that day, both bands nailed all their biggest hits and the crowd lapped it up. Quite simply it was a great fun concert, everybody got their money's worth and left well pleased with the show.

Peter Noone in particular was still a consummate entertainer and put on a good energetic show. At one point at the Ex he did a parody of Mick Jagger's stage act and nailed it. So funny!

Here's a review of a Herman's Hermits show from a few years ago:

Herman's Hermits - New York State Fair

I could/would have written a very similar review at the time.

In any event, here are five more of my favourite tunes by Herman's Hermits:











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Old 09-27-2021, 10:49 PM   #26
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It was very bizarre, even to the extent that The Who toured with Hermans Hermits, and opened for them.
That is absolutely understandable because the Who were relative latecomers. They didn't arrive on the scene until the other bands mentioned in this thread were already well established hit makers on the charts. The Who's first album, My Generation, didn't hit stores until December 1965 in the U.K. and April 1966 in North America. Their second album, Happy Jack, wasn't released until April 1967 in North America. The Happy Jack single from late in 1966 was their first hit in North America and even that only got to #24 on the Billboard chart (though it reached #1 in May 1967 on Toronto's CHUM radio chart).

So it was during the Who's very first tour of North America in the summer of 1967 that they opened for Herman's Hermits who were then touring North America for the seventh time. Of course Herman's Hermits were going to be the feature act. With a whopping sixteen Top 35 hits in the States including eight Top 5 hits with two of those having reached #1, Herman's Hermits were the established hit-makers and it was their name on the bill that sold the tickets.
Herman's Hermits were such big stars at the time that they reduced almost all other bands to second billing. Here's a concert poster for a show in Dallas on 16 July 1966 that I dredged up from the web:



And here's a concert poster from that summer of 1967 tour with the Who:



Incidentally here is the appearance that the Who made on the Smothers Brothers TV show around the time of that 1967 tour:



Hmmmmm. I love the way John Entwistle stayed cool and disengaged from the surrounding mayhem.

Good thing that I never saw their appearance on the Smothers Brothers at the time. I might perhaps have been less inclined to go out and buy the Tommy LP after I read about it in Time magazine in the late spring of 1969. That would have been a pity because I found it to be fabulous! Tommy together with some of their previously released singles including Happy Jack and Magic Bus turned me into a big fan of the Who.

But then again who knows? I might have interpreted their shenanigans on the Smothers Brothers as evidence of their dedication to their craft à la Jimi Hendrix pouring lighter fluid on his guitar, setting it ablaze and then playing it with his teeth behind his neck. I don't know whether it's the times that have changed or I have....

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Old 09-30-2021, 10:30 AM   #27
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Exclamation Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

I can't find any posters with both the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits on the same bill. But here are a couple posters from 1965 with the two bands featured on different nights:





Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Gerry and the Pacemakers, the Kinks plus the Moody Blues or the Rolling Stones, all at the same price at the Arie Crown Theater in Chicago! Take your pick.

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Old 10-10-2021, 04:16 AM   #28
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

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I can't find any posters with both the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits on the same bill. But here are a couple posters from 1965 with the two bands featured on different nights:





Dave Clark Five, Herman's Hermits, Gerry and the Pacemakers, the Kinks plus the Moody Blues or the Rolling Stones, all at the same price at the Arie Crown Theater in Chicago! Take your pick.


I'd pick the Stones, The Kinks, and the Moodies. I would stay in and wash my hair rather than bother with the others, who became stars on the coat tails of the class acts around them. It happens in every era. The class acts progress, and develop, and those on the coat tails carry on doing the same thing, and become cabaret acts., if they bother at all.
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Old 10-12-2021, 01:55 PM   #29
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

To be honest I went for Dave Clark Five just for their B-side "Concentration Baby", which is just...ah, SO GOOD!
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Old 10-14-2021, 10:08 AM   #30
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I'd pick the Stones, The Kinks, and the Moodies. I would stay in and wash my hair rather than bother with the others....
Looking back as a rock music fan cum historian, I wish I'd seen all those shows. As windows in time, they'd have left me with an invaluable historical perspective.

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...the others, who became stars on the coat tails of the class acts around them.
Nonetheless, during the early eighteen months or so of the British Invasion the Beatles monitored the success of the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits with some degree of concern. Said Andrew Loog Oldham "In 1964 when the Beatles looked in their rear-view mirror, it wasn't the Rolling Stones they saw, it was the Dave Clark 5 and Herman's Hermits".

Interesting as well that riding on the coat tails of the success of the Beatles' Hard Day's Night movie, the Catch Us if You Can movie featuring the Dave Clark Five was released in the U.K. in April 1965 and on 18 August 1965 in the States retitled as Having a Wild Weekend:



A Herman's Hermits movie entitled Hold On followed suit in April 1966:



But the efforts to release a movie featuring the Rolling Stones were stillborn. While a rockumentary entitled Charlie Is My Darling chronicling the Stones' September 3-4th 1965 concert tour of Ireland was finished in the spring of 1966, it was never released due to legal wrangling between the Stones and their U.S. business manager Allen Klein and the fact that all the known finished prints disappeared after a burglary of Andrew Loog Oldham's office.



The two other Stones' films that were in the planning stages in late 1965 and 1966, Back, Behind and in Front and Only Lovers Left Behind, didn't get off the ground.

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Old 10-14-2021, 11:08 AM   #31
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

I have never seen anything from The Beatles where they considered those two groups as a threat to them, because they weren't. Those two had their act, and stuck with it until they got fed up with it, and disappeared. The Beatles, The Stones, and the other quality bands progressed year upon year. Please Please Me to Abbey Road in leass than 7 years. Old Herman cant match that.

If you like them, that's okay, but lets not pretend they were anywhere near the level of The Beatles, The Stones etc. In the UK they were part of the mainstream pop scene, and were not as good as people like The Hollies, and Manfred Mann who were at the higher end of that scene., and I did like those two, but cant compare them with the bands who were making seriously good music, and looking to develop new things every album.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:07 PM   #32
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I have never seen anything from The Beatles where they considered those two groups as a threat to them, because they weren't.

Why would you have seen anything? It's not something the Beatles would have cared to advertise after the fact. In truth the Beatles did not feel that their position at the top of the rock pantheon in 1964-65 was secure. Quite simply the history of pop music stars at the time was "Here today, gone tomorrow." My father and all other adults were constantly saying that the music of the Beatles and the other pop music stars would be completely forgotten in a few decades time.


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Those two had their act, and stuck with it until they got fed up with it, and disappeared. The Beatles, The Stones, and the other quality bands progressed year upon year. Please Please Me to Abbey Road in leass than 7 years. Old Herman cant match that.

All true. But!!! That's not the point. You kicked off this discussion with this post:


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I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups. Hardly in the same league as the great British bands that emerged during that era.

Yes, the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were cheesy pop groups in 1964-65. So were the Beatles until say December 1965 when they released Rubber Soul. That's exactly what the market demanded in those days. Had any of those bands been anything but cheesy pop groups, they would not have carved out a niche for themselves in pop music fandom at the time. Together with the Beatles, the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits were defining acts of the early part of the British Invasion. You're making the mistake of dismissing the role they played in the British Invasion simply because looking back on them these days you find their music to be lightweight.


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If you like them, that's okay, but lets not pretend they were anywhere near the level of The Beatles, The Stones etc.

They were near the level of the Beatles and actually ahead of the Stones in the early part of the British Invasion until the last few weeks of 1964, and I'm saying this today even though I've been a huge fan of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Animals and the Kinks for over 55 years. The Beatles only began to demonstrate their superiority over the Dave Clark Five with the release of their Hard Days Night LP in July 1964. And it was only with their release of Time Is on My Side in September 1964 and their appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show in October 1964 that the Stones established themselves as any kind of noteworthy players in the British Invasion.

You're looking back at the Dave Clark Five and Herman's Hermits and sneering now because unlike the Beatles and the Rolling Stones they never made the transition into album oriented rock. That of course is easy to do in retrospect but in 1964 most music observers would actually have guessed that none of the bands that were hitting the charts at the time would be remembered let alone survive into the 1970's. To imply now that you knew it all along just seems to be snootiness.

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Old 10-15-2021, 04:17 AM   #33
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

I never rated those two at the time. Even then it was obvious they were not in the same league. Being popular is a different thing.

The Beatles early records were simple pop, but at the time they were new and exciting. The likes of Clark were copies that had nowhere else to go. The Beatles have often said they kept a close eye on The Stones, because they considered them serious rivals.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:46 PM   #34
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I never rated those two at the time. Even then it was obvious they were not in the same league. Being popular is a different thing.
It's funny. As a twelve year old at the time I wasn't buying records but I'd heard most of the big hits of the various British Invasion bands on my local Top 40 radio station. Admittedly I might not at the time have been able to identify which hit was by which band.

I do however remember being surprised at how well the Dave Clark Five did against the Beatles on the phone-in poll taken by CHLO radio in 1964.

I also very clearly remember discussing and comparing the Beatles to the Dave Clark Five with Ed Pranskus at a scout camp in which we were in the same tent in July of 1964. Pranskus was about a year older than me and far more worldly/sophisticated. It was his contention that the Dave Clark Five were a better band than the Beatles and that any guy aspiring to be cool would wear his hair combed over to the side like Dave Clark instead of straight down like the Beatles.

Ed Pranskus went on to become the drummer of Thundermug:





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The Beatles have often said they kept a close eye on The Stones, because they considered them serious rivals.
Things weren't the same in the U.K. as they were in the States. The Rolling Stones became pop stars in the U.K. far more quickly than they did in the States. The Stones garnered the New Musical Express Award for the best British Rhythm and Blues band early in 1964. But it wasn't until the Rolling Stones appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show on 25 October 1964 where they performed their first American top ten hit Time Is on My Side that they first made a real impact on this side of the Atlantic and their popularity began to mushroom. And what transpired in the States is what's important here since that's what's implied by the term "British Invasion".

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Old 10-16-2021, 05:52 AM   #35
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Re: Dave Clark Five vs. Herman's Hermits!

Well if old Ed said the DC5 were better than The Beatles it must be true, and history, and facts about the two have fooled us all this time.

Popularity does not mean better, or even good. On that basis, the Bay City Rollers, the Spice Girls, and many other flash in the pans are better then The Who.

The time was right for British groups to go over there and try and copy The Beatles, and an audience was waiting for them. Your two timed it right, but had no lasting quality.
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Old 10-16-2021, 09:57 AM   #36
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Well if old Ed said the DC5 were better than The Beatles it must be true, and history, and facts about the two have fooled us all this time.

Popularity does not mean better, or even good. On that basis, the Bay City Rollers, the Spice Girls, and many other flash in the pans are better then The Who.

The time was right for British groups to go over there and try and copy The Beatles, and an audience was waiting for them. Your two timed it right, but had no lasting quality.
I agree (although they did record a few tracks of some lasting quality). Where I'm disagreeing is with your determination to minimize or even ignore the role that the Dave Clark Five and the Herman's Hermits played in the British Invasion:

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I always scratch my head when this pair were considered great examples of the British invasion. They were both cheesy pop groups.
Both bands were in the forefront right behind the Beatles of the first wave of the British Invasion. They were both there big time in 1964. Any chronicling of the British Invasion that glosses over their role is at best historically inaccurate. And I have indeed encountered a number of accounts of the British Invasion that pass over the Dave Clark Five, Gerry & the Pacemakers and Herman's Hermits and segue immediately into the Rolling Stones, Animals, Kinks and the Yardbirds. This is retconning at its worst.

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